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Basalt911
Newbie


Joined: 12 Feb 2019
Posts: 36



PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

absolutely, recommend a check - a no-brainer

my point is that some light scoring is presumably acceptable on a 98k engine and too many people just run away at the mere mention of the S word (hence 10/11 cars quote). Light scoring and then all the right measures to prevent further damage is presumably acceptable at that age?

I guess nobody bore-scopes 98k M3s or Astons, but I assume they'd find less than perfect pictures if they did? Or maybe I'm talking b0ll0x.
 
  
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ragpicker
Estoril


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 3986
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know, I'm no expert, but if you were looking for a 997.1 and found mild scoring would you be happy - especially with the knowledge of the common failure?

My 986 boxster is on 160k miles (essentially same engine as the 997) , had the camera down the bores by my local indy - zero scoring marks.

My 996 turbo (different engine altogether) had a complete rebuild at 78k miles - no scoring whatsoever.. you could still see the cross-hatching on the cylinders from when they were manufactured.

10/11 sounds extreme and it probably is but this forum is littered with tales of people looking to buy who have walked away from many cars due to this. There's also a good few tales of engine failures unfortunately.

Its not just the M96/7 engines either. The V8's in my cayenne turbo are known to score! Incredible. nooo
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Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 652
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basalt911 wrote:
absolutely, recommend a check - a no-brainer

my point is that some light scoring is presumably acceptable on a 98k engine and too many people just run away at the mere mention of the S word (hence 10/11 cars quote). Light scoring and then all the right measures to prevent further damage is presumably acceptable at that age?

I guess nobody bore-scopes 98k M3s or Astons, but I assume they'd find less than perfect pictures if they did? Or maybe I'm talking b0ll0x.


As "ragpicker" says...the engine has history....it is usually cylinders on bank 2 that score basically through overheating. This affects the coating on the pistons too. On some engines a light tap can be heard...which is piston slap.

The scoring is different to what you would expect..hence the need for someone with expert knowledge (not me Floor )

There are some good photos on the Hartech website

My 996 engine was rebuilt by Hartech and when I sold it, I held out for a premium price (which some people questioned)

As a coincidence, I posted a PM to the guy who bought it off me last weekend, he is a member of this forum.

After 5 years of ownership he has had no issues, which is testament to the guys at Hartech and to me for emptying my wallet. Floor
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simkin911
Newbie


Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 48
Location: Midlothian


PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone looking for a 997 - I’m grateful to the OP for starting this thread and all the subsequent contributors.

However, some of the opinions expressed herein leave me a little nervous. Added to that, there is a car (S model) I’ve found that I am interested in but the seller organised a health check as part of the sales process to help buyers. The bore scope check simply reads ‘clear’.

I’m not doubting this result (80k on car) but another thread on this site suggests the result is also influenced by the technician’s ability and light quality etc. Added to this, Hartech seem to suggest that a clear scope now doesn’t mean it’d be clear next year or the year after... etc.

I’m coming round to thinking I’m maybe simply better off considering a 997.1 c2 (with IMS upgraded) or aim for a 997.2 a little later down the line or a rebuild car. There was a GR 997 on Pistonheads last week for £8k requiring a rebuild but I’d prefer to buy and drive.

So, for the OP - yes, get a bore scope check but it seems it may only be as good as the technician and the result may only be 100% relevant at the time of purchase!
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resigner
Suzuka


Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 1212



PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right.

Can you all stop running away from Bore Score cars?

As we have said, many times before, there are degrees of score. Light, expected, lots, bad. Just because a car has it, doesn't mean it is a problem. You need the Boroscope to be done by someone who actually know what they are doing. Get the pictures, ask the lovely people on here what they think (in private).

My car has 81k miles, was recently checked, and came up perfectly clean. I know there are people on here who have run cars with a little bit of scoring. I mean, it's an engine, every single engine in the world will show some scoring at some point, on any, of any make.

Get it checked (anyone know a good Indy in Devon? SCS? (arent they sofa's???))

98k miles isnt a problem, its all about if it's been looked after?

Now, back to bore score. Are the left hand tailpipes sooty? Does it smoke when running from that side only? These are the first things to check, because the bores are more susceptible on one side, which comes out the left hand side, so smoke, while running, for a period of time, from the left, probably bad bore scoring. BUT the only way to know for sure is to get it Boroscoped, which isn't expensive, cost me about £100 recently.

Don't get hung up on any one car, there are plenty out there, though sounds like you are at the low end of the budget scale. maybe look at a Cat D car? They are fine as long as they are repaired properly, and will be 30% cheaper.....

PM me if you want to chat, I went through the same thing 4 years ago!
 
  
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a1butch
Trainee


Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Posts: 52
Location: Colchester


PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simkin911 wrote:
As someone looking for a 997 - I’m grateful to the OP for starting this thread and all the subsequent contributors.

However, some of the opinions expressed herein leave me a little nervous. Added to that, there is a car (S model) I’ve found that I am interested in but the seller organised a health check as part of the sales process to help buyers. The bore scope check simply reads ‘clear’.

I’m not doubting this result (80k on car) but another thread on this site suggests the result is also influenced by the technician’s ability and light quality etc. Added to this, Hartech seem to suggest that a clear scope now doesn’t mean it’d be clear next year or the year after... etc.

I’m coming round to thinking I’m maybe simply better off considering a 997.1 c2 (with IMS upgraded) or aim for a 997.2 a little later down the line or a rebuild car. There was a GR 997 on Pistonheads last week for £8k requiring a rebuild but I’d prefer to buy and drive.

So, for the OP - yes, get a bore scope check but it seems it may only be as good as the technician and the result may only be 100% relevant at the time of purchase!


Hi, out of interest which car is this? Sounds suspiciously like mine!
 
  
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simkin911
Newbie


Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 48
Location: Midlothian


PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not your car. Different colour, different country!
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tvrkris
Newbie


Joined: 09 Mar 2019
Posts: 7



PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank guys for all your posts.... I am now in that paranoid moment as there are lots of horror stories about the Gen 1... am I better paying more for a gen 2????

not really fancying a engine rebuild at 8k......

the guy had the car advertised for 20k I have seen the reciept for the engine change at bristol porsche was cared for by them until 2013 then by SCS porsche in Devon... from the pictures looks like it had a few stone chips at the front and was in silver heated seats, BOSE and reversing sensors.
i thnik he had it up from around begining of Feb and it is no longer advertised it is still for sale but the advert has finished I think.
checked MOT history nothing much to report on that
Front tyres wearing slightly on inner edges only not from MOT
passed every MOT from 2013 only failed in 08 and 13 on head lamp aim....
frustrated Dont know
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 15341
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tvrkris wrote:


... I am now in that paranoid moment as there are lots of horror stories about the Gen 1... am I better paying more for a gen 2????

not really fancying a engine rebuild at 8k......



If you're able to buy a Gen2 car I would.

It's a straight choice.

(a) Spend £30k now for a newer car and relative peace of mind.

(b) spend £20k now + a continuous nagging doubt + a possible £8k spend at some time.

Good luck Thumb
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ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
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spongebob squarepants
Zolder


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 5110
Location: Manchester and Iraq


PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tvrkris wrote:
thank guys for all your posts.... I am now in that paranoid moment as there are lots of horror stories about the Gen 1... am I better paying more for a gen 2????

not really fancying a engine rebuild at 8k......

the guy had the car advertised for 20k I have seen the reciept for the engine change at bristol porsche was cared for by them until 2013 then by SCS porsche in Devon... from the pictures looks like it had a few stone chips at the front and was in silver heated seats, BOSE and reversing sensors.
i thnik he had it up from around begining of Feb and it is no longer advertised it is still for sale but the advert has finished I think.
checked MOT history nothing much to report on that
Front tyres wearing slightly on inner edges only not from MOT
passed every MOT from 2013 only failed in 08 and 13 on head lamp aim....
frustrated Dont know


It’s a high mileage car. Which has a huge effect on resale values. Everyone buys a Porsche to keep, no one ever does! Very hard to sell on with those miles, chance of the dreaded borescore, personally I’d run a mile. Ok the engines done half the miles, everything else hasn’t. Think what the trade would be offering him for that car, and that’s closer to its retail value.

There’s plenty out there, it’s a buyers market, just wait for the right one (with the engine already Hartech or equalivalent rebuilt by someone else!) easypeasy.

Everyone will say condition condition, unless your keeping it forever- mileage mileage!
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tvrkris
Newbie


Joined: 09 Mar 2019
Posts: 7



PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just put details into we buy any car....

They would offer £11680. can this be right??

what would a dealer be offering?
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 15341
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tvrkris wrote:


Just put details into we buy any car....

They would offer £11680. can this be right??

what would a dealer be offering?


WBAC offer the minimum price they think they could get at auction less their likely costs.

A dealer might offer more if they felt it was a better car than that but I suspect with 98k miles showing they'd want it for under £13k.
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ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
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tvrkris
Newbie


Joined: 09 Mar 2019
Posts: 7



PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just seen this

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-carrera-997/porsche-911-997-carrera-2/9515395

3.6 2005 with 108000 at Zuffenhaus £17995....

I will look to secure a Gen 2 I think...
 
  
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Cannop
Newbie


Joined: 27 Feb 2018
Posts: 31
Location: Berks/Oxon border


PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the years go by mileage becomes less important, I'd go as far to say it becomes one of the least important aspects when buying a 997.1 as the youngest are 10+ years old now.

Of far more importance is the history of work carried out and by that I mean not just a stamp in the book every service interval as that's the bare minimum a car should receive.

Having receipts/history for non service work carried out on the engine, brakes, suspension, ancillaries, radiators, etc should be what you're looking for coupled with the general feel of the car, how well the interiors fared, the condition of the bodywork and paint and how many previous owners it's had, stuff like that.

Once a car gets near 100k or 10 years old then milage is pretty much irrelevant and the above points are what you should be taking into account, at 10 plus years if any of the above work hasn't been done it certainly will need doing in the near future even if the car's only done 50k.

I'd far rather buy a properly cared for and documented 997.1 with 100k+ on the clock than a 50k one with only the stamps in the service book.
 
  
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Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 652
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cannop wrote:
As the years go by mileage becomes less important, I'd go as far to say it becomes one of the least important aspects when buying a 997.1 as the youngest are 10+ years old now.

Of far more importance is the history of work carried out and by that I mean not just a stamp in the book every service interval as that's the bare minimum a car should receive.

Having receipts/history for non service work carried out on the engine, brakes, suspension, ancillaries, radiators, etc should be what you're looking for coupled with the general feel of the car, how well the interiors fared, the condition of the bodywork and paint and how many previous owners it's had, stuff like that.

Once a car gets near 100k or 10 years old then milage is pretty much irrelevant and the above points are what you should be taking into account, at 10 plus years if any of the above work hasn't been done it certainly will need doing in the near future even if the car's only done 50k.

I'd far rather buy a properly cared for and documented 997.1 with 100k+ on the clock than a 50k one with only the stamps in the service book.


+1
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6991
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Rhodris Dad... with your car when you found it had scored bores, what led you to get the diagnosis done?
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spongebob squarepants
Zolder


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 5110
Location: Manchester and Iraq


PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhodris-dad wrote:
Cannop wrote:
As the years go by mileage becomes less important, I'd go as far to say it becomes one of the least important aspects when buying a 997.1 as the youngest are 10+ years old now.

Of far more importance is the history of work carried out and by that I mean not just a stamp in the book every service interval as that's the bare minimum a car should receive.

Having receipts/history for non service work carried out on the engine, brakes, suspension, ancillaries, radiators, etc should be what you're looking for coupled with the general feel of the car, how well the interiors fared, the condition of the bodywork and paint and how many previous owners it's had, stuff like that.

Once a car gets near 100k or 10 years old then milage is pretty much irrelevant and the above points are what you should be taking into account, at 10 plus years if any of the above work hasn't been done it certainly will need doing in the near future even if the car's only done 50k.

I'd far rather buy a properly cared for and documented 997.1 with 100k+ on the clock than a 50k one with only the stamps in the service book.


+1


+2. As long as the price is relevant to the mileage....
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EX 997.2 Carrera 4S PDK
EX 997.2 Carrera S PDK
EX 993 C2 manual in guards red
EX 997 C2 gen 2 PDK
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Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 652
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
@Rhodris Dad... with your car when you found it had scored bores, what led you to get the diagnosis done?


It was due for a service and as it had all it's stamps, I decided to let Hartech have a look at it.

At that time bore scoring was still not that well publicised. I had no idea but they must have had heard the light tapping and did a investigation.
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Cannop
Newbie


Joined: 27 Feb 2018
Posts: 31
Location: Berks/Oxon border


PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spongebob squarepants wrote:
+2. As long as the price is relevant to the mileage....


My point is the older a car gets the less important this is. A 100k 997.1 could be a much better buy at the same price as a 50k one depending on the history of both.

I looked for almost a year for my 997.1 and I saw dozens of cars, a lot of them purporting to be around the 50 to 60k mileage mark and a lot at around the 100k mark.

Almost without exception (I say almost!) the 100k cars I viewed had a more honest history than the lower mileage cars, I think this may be because I tended to choose carefully the higher mileage cars I went to see. One of my criteria was 3 or less previous owners and it seemed the owners I met tended to be enthusiasts in the complete sense of the word. The things that turned me off some of the higher mileage ones I viewed wasn't anything to do with mechanical history as on the whole they all seemed very well looked after, it was more the spec levels and colours that I was fussy about.

With the lower mileage cars I widened my net and visited quite a number of dealers and all I can say is it was an eye opener! Exceptional 50 to 60k cars being sold by a dealer command exceptional prices whereas run of the mill tired examples (always with a fully stamped service book strangely enough) seem to be offered at what I'd expect to be paying for a decent example.
 
  
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Poker2009
Österreich


Joined: 09 Sep 2009
Posts: 891
Location: London


PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
tvrkris wrote:


... I am now in that paranoid moment as there are lots of horror stories about the Gen 1... am I better paying more for a gen 2????

not really fancying a engine rebuild at 8k......



If you're able to buy a Gen2 car I would.

It's a straight choice.

(a) Spend £30k now for a newer car and relative peace of mind.

(b) spend £20k now + a continuous nagging doubt + a possible £8k spend at some time.

Good luck Thumb


The cost of a rebuild on a Gen 1, would more or less bring you up to the cost of a Gen 2 with no rebuild. Gen 2 is also not 100% bullet proof, and is now a 10 year old car. In my mind, you are better off with a Gen 1, if nothing goes wrong you saved yourself 10-15k.

I am on 9.5 years on a 14 year old Gen 1 with 63k miles, and it is fine.

Drive the car above 3k revs as much as possible (stay in lower gears if necessary), change oil (Millers NT) every year or 5-6k miles (religiously keep it topped up). Keep a close eye on coolant level.

Change the air and pollen filters yourself (Mann from eurocarparts), stretch out the spark plug change to 5-6 years or say 30k miles, and only spend money when it something needs to be fixed (i.e. when the brake warning goes off, I will change the brakes!). Also, 2 year brake fluid change is a waste of money - should be more like 8 year - we live in the UK, not Dubai!

The last stamp in my book was nine years ago (and I don't care about service history nonsense). If tomorrow I have to Hartech rebuild engine, I would just pay it.
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