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MattCPR
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Joined: 07 Mar 2019
Posts: 19



PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject: Purchase Advice/Bore Scoring Reply with quote

Hi, just joined the forum looking for some advice and inspiration on buying my first 911.

I know that bore scoring has been covered a lot already on here, and I understand the science behind it, but I’m wondering what can be done to prevent it.

I’m looking to buy a car with lowing miles and to keep as something to drive when I get a rare weekend off. That said it isn’t going to be racking up many miles a year (3k maybe).

If I am to buy a car with minimal bore marking and then treat it right and regularly change the oil am I right in thinking that the chances of bad bore scoring will be slim? Or will one day it just decide ‘that’s enough now, let’s put some lines down here’?

Also anything else to look out for?
Thanks in advance!
 
  
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pzero
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Morning, and Welcome to 911uk.

To answer your question regarding bore scoring have a look a the first post in the 997 FAQ's
It is a detailed account from Baz Hart;

http://www.911uk.com/viewforum.php?f=34
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cheshire911
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Better still, phone Hartech and speak to Grant (Baz's son) or Tobias (chief technician). A half hour phone call to Grant helped me made up my mind between a C4S or a Turbo. Obi-Wan taught me well, as did Master Yoda.
I chose wisely as you'll see from my signature.

Half an hour call will give you all the information you need to decide and answer your questions. The article by Baz is great, but a chat cuts to the chase.
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Scholester
Suzuka


Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 1088
Location: South West


PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire911 wrote:
Better still, phone Hartech and speak to Grant (Baz's son) or Tobias (chief technician). A half hour phone call to Grant helped me made up my mind between a C4S or a Turbo. Obi-Wan taught me well, as did Master Yoda.
I chose wisely as you'll see from my signature.

Half an hour call will give you all the information you need to decide and answer your questions. The article by Baz is great, but a chat cuts to the chase.


OP may or may not be aware of the fundamental difference in the drivetrains between the two models mentioned. The deciding factor usually comes down to whether spending double up front is the way to go.

I chose to do so - like yourself Cheshire - but wouldn't have if bore scoring etc had not afflicted the lovely C2/4 cars.
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Luddite
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Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 248
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MattCPR, welcome to the forum and congrats on your choice of Porsche as an escape from the norms of daily life... I have no current Porsche experience whatsoever but like you I came here in search of education having read much of the Porsche paranoia...

I wonder just how many Porsche owners have very similar constraints relative to time to enjoy their pride and joy and just what the realities are for the Porsche in question..?

If like me you live somewhere within 15mins drive from a great piece of road with corners and straights enough to test the skills of anyone who fancies themselves as a "driver," then what are the chances on the rare occasion you do get a weekend off when the weather is ideal that before the engine has fully warmed through you are perhaps cracking the whip enough to create what may well be bore scoring territory, and of those 3K miles how many may well be rather similar...?

If on the other hand you live in a crowded area of the country where you may well be stuck in slowish traffic that enforces a rather longer warm up time before you find a bit of free Tarmac, the engine might suffer a bit less?

I suspect low mileage garage queens that have spent the majority of their life locked up then taken out and ..err...enjoyed, might suffer more than those used more regularly...?

Porsche tend to wear their miles well in terms of appearance relative to wear and tear and it can take an experienced eye to pick up the subtle signs of age and abuse that may be WELL hidden thus a PPI would seem to be a prerequisite if not buying from the official Porsche network or a specialist with a known good reputation and guarantee scheme to back the sale up..?

I would also suspect that the choice of PPI expertise might also not be quite as straightforward as you imagine, there is a LOT to be learned within the pages of this forum

I wish you the very best of luck in your process of acquisition of one of the worlds iconic sports cars. Thumb
 
  
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cheshire911
Estoril


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3820



PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scholester wrote:
cheshire911 wrote:
Better still, phone Hartech and speak to Grant (Baz's son) or Tobias (chief technician). A half hour phone call to Grant helped me made up my mind between a C4S or a Turbo. Obi-Wan taught me well, as did Master Yoda.
I chose wisely as you'll see from my signature.

Half an hour call will give you all the information you need to decide and answer your questions. The article by Baz is great, but a chat cuts to the chase.


OP may or may not be aware of the fundamental difference in the drivetrains between the two models mentioned. The deciding factor usually comes down to whether spending double up front is the way to go.

I chose to do so - like yourself Cheshire - but wouldn't have if bore scoring etc had not afflicted the lovely C2/4 cars.


Quite possibly the OP may not be aware of the differences between the IMS yes/no or the dry-sump versus the "integrated dry sump" that Porsche describes for the non-Mezger cars. I am sure Grant can explain it all and then he can make up his mind. I know I chose wisely even though the acquisition cost up-front was double. But sometimes, more is less (risk and headache) and more definitely gives that wow factor on performance.
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15192
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact your asking about borescore makes me think your budget it for a 997.1 Carrera/S, So unless I am mistaken I won't touch on Turbos GTcars and 997.2s

Much IMO depends on how long are you keeping the car . for instance is it a love that you intend to keep for 5 plus years or is it just to tick the 911 box and move on at the end of the summer. also are you stretching yourself to get one or is it budgeted for along with maintenance.

if its the first , and in the budget then I would be doing one of three things

A/ buy a well specced high miler or one with a known issue very cheap mid teens send it straight to Hartech get the rebuild or budget allowing the 3.9 conversion and have a very nice and ultra reliable 997 for 26/27k all in.

B/ buy a car with an already rebuilt engine for 25/27k but make sure that its a full rebuild as many advertising a rebuild have only replaced the one scored cylinder or maybe the 1 bank of three as its usually 4, 5,6, that go due.

C/ Buy a car enjoy it knowing that its only a small percentage of these cars that suffer borescore and should you be one of the unlucky ones , know you brought the car knowing it might happen get it sent off and rebuilt and get back to enjoying it.

the advantage of plan C is should it not go bang you have a rebuild pot unused that can be put towards your next car. the disadvantage is you may be without if for a few weeks while its in for a rebuild . having said that its not a catastrophic failure and more of a gradual decline slowly using more oil and sounding a bit rattly so no reason why you couldn't drive it right up until the day it goes in for the work.

The other thing you need to be aware of is IMS failure this is a weakness in the IMS bearing on the early cars and by march 06 all were using the newer better IMS bearing some 05 cars have the newer bearing but you can only tell by checking the engine number .

Also worth noting that the general consensus is that the 997.1 3.6 manual is the least likely to suffer Borescore in general less 3.6 cars get borescore and in general manual cars suffer less than tip cars due to the tip using second to pull away and this adds strain to the engine.


the ideal and widely accepted way to minimise risk of scoring is to change the oil at best 6 monthly or at 5k miles and minimum yearly and at 10k miles change the oil to a thicker viscosity ideally 10w50 at min 5W40 Hartech recommend Millers nano plus oil which I use but the viscosity is more important than the brand IMO . fully warm the car up driving at under 3k revs until fully warmed up this is due to the varying metals expanding differently and seems to be when Most scoring damage car occur. there are other things like fitting a LTT, centre rad etc that some consider a good idea.but theres much debate about those options , I did fit a LTT to my gen1.

but dont get to caught up in the negative hype with borescore , I had my tiptronic 997.1 for 4.5 years did 50k miles sold it on 89k miles had it borescoped and it was clean as a whistle. and other than follow the good practices around oil and warm up. I am not a very mechanically sympathetic driver , so it got driven hard a lot of the time

Thumb Thumb good luck with the hunt for what you decide suits you. Thumb
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timbo1811
Trainee


Joined: 13 Dec 2016
Posts: 98
Location: Dorset


PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Luddite"]MattCPR,

I suspect low mileage garage queens that have spent the majority of their life locked up then taken out and ..err...enjoyed, might suffer more than those used more regularly...?




Something I don't understand is, how does a car which is used less stand a greater chance of borescoring?
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cheshire911
Estoril


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3820



PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
The fact your asking about borescore makes me think your budget it for a 997.1 Carrera/S, So unless I am mistaken I won't touch on Turbos GTcars and 997.2s

Much IMO depends on how long are you keeping the car . for instance is it a love that you intend to keep for 5 plus years or is it just to tick the 911 box and move on at the end of the summer. also are you stretching yourself to get one or is it budgeted for along with maintenance.

if its the first , and in the budget then I would be doing one of three things

A/ buy a well specced high miler or one with a known issue very cheap mid teens send it straight to Hartech get the rebuild or budget allowing the 3.9 conversion and have a very nice and ultra reliable 997 for 26/27k all in.

B/ buy a car with an already rebuilt engine for 25/27k but make sure that its a full rebuild as many advertising a rebuild have only replaced the one scored cylinder or maybe the 1 bank of three as its usually 4, 5,6, that go due.

C/ Buy a car enjoy it knowing that its only a small percentage of these cars that suffer borescore and should you be one of the unlucky ones , know you brought the car knowing it might happen get it sent off and rebuilt and get back to enjoying it.

the advantage of plan C is should it not go bang you have a rebuild pot unused that can be put towards your next car. the disadvantage is you may be without if for a few weeks while its in for a rebuild . having said that its not a catastrophic failure and more of a gradual decline slowly using more oil and sounding a bit rattly so no reason why you couldn't drive it right up until the day it goes in for the work.

The other thing you need to be aware of is IMS failure this is a weakness in the IMS bearing on the early cars and by march 06 all were using the newer better IMS bearing some 05 cars have the newer bearing but you can only tell by checking the engine number .

Also worth noting that the general consensus is that the 997.1 3.6 manual is the least likely to suffer Borescore in general less 3.6 cars get borescore and in general manual cars suffer less than tip cars due to the tip using second to pull away and this adds strain to the engine.


the ideal and widely accepted way to minimise risk of scoring is to change the oil at best 6 monthly or at 5k miles and minimum yearly and at 10k miles change the oil to a thicker viscosity ideally 10w50 at min 5W40 Hartech recommend Millers nano plus oil which I use but the viscosity is more important than the brand IMO . fully warm the car up driving at under 3k revs until fully warmed up this is due to the varying metals expanding differently and seems to be when Most scoring damage car occur. there are other things like fitting a LTT, centre rad etc that some consider a good idea.but theres much debate about those options , I did fit a LTT to my gen1.

but dont get to caught up in the negative hype with borescore , I had my tiptronic 997.1 for 4.5 years did 50k miles sold it on 89k miles had it borescoped and it was clean as a whistle. and other than follow the good practices around oil and warm up. I am not a very mechanically sympathetic driver , so it got driven hard a lot of the time

Thumb Thumb good luck with the hunt for what you decide suits you. Thumb


The reality is that this bore scoring (and IMS faikure) is totally unpredictable. It has no relationship to mileage or garage queens. There is some relationship on tiptronics v manual box with tip autos having higher risk. It is Russian Roulette so its down to each purchaser and their attitude to risk. You might get away with 50k miles use with no problem. Or you may not and incur £12k rebuild at Hartech which you'll never recover at resale but will make the car a long term car that is future-proof from these pre-rebuild ailments.

Only you can decide with your attitude to risk.
They are grest cars, but carry these risks. You may be lucky, you may not.
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15192
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire911 wrote:


The reality is that this bore scoring (and IMS faikure) is totally unpredictable. It has no relationship to mileage or garage queens. There is some relationship on tiptronics v manual box with tip autos having higher risk. It is Russian Roulette so its down to each purchaser and their attitude to risk. You might get away with 50k miles use with no problem. Or you may not and incur £12k rebuild at Hartech which you'll never recover at resale but will make the car a long term car that is future-proof from these pre-rebuild ailments.

Only you can decide with your attitude to risk.
They are grest cars, but carry these risks. You may be lucky, you may not.


I couldn't agree more with attitude to risk as I am sure you know after owning my reliable and cheap to maintain 997.1 tip for 4.5 years I went out and brought an ultra reliable 997.2 18 months ago .

In the past 12 months the 997.2 has needed coolant pipes replacing a gearbox rebuild, new clutch and flywheel and an engine rebuild cost 25k so these things do happen unexpectedly even if you have brought an ultra reliable 997.2 .

Will I get that 25k back , almost certainly not . you can be cup half empty about it or cup half full about it . I intend to keep the 997.2 for at least another 3 years that will mean I have owned 997s for 9 years and spent circa £30,000 on maintaining them excluding the other 25k spent on mods Grin but put the mods aside as it was my choice

30k over 9 years thats £3,333 pa the gen1 I sold for 3k more than I paid for it , the gen2 will depreciate but not like most other marques so lets assume I may lose 15k on it ,thats a total cost of 911 ownership over 9 years of £42,000 an ave of £4,666 pa If I had owned a bland euro box like say a 65k BMW or Merc for 9 years I would have easily lost 42k if not more , and as my car is also my hobby we need to also take into account what a hobby like golf would cost for green fees membership etc for 9 years , probably another 30k or more .

So despite the cost I still consider my ownership a very cheap 9 years of 911 driving and enjoying as my daily drive and my hobby. and so much more fun than owning a bland euro box and playing golf Floor

So as Cheshire says its very much about attitude as to whether you end up enjoying your 911 ownership or not. If you want safe get a silver Kia turdingo or similar Floor Floor Floor Floor if you think you only live once get out there and buy yourself a nice 911 Grin Thumb Thumb
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M&MD&D
Newbie


Joined: 28 Jul 2015
Posts: 40



PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
The fact your asking about borescore makes me think your budget it for a 997.1 Carrera/S, So unless I am mistaken I won't touch on Turbos GTcars and 997.2s

Much IMO depends on how long are you keeping the car . for instance is it a love that you intend to keep for 5 plus years or is it just to tick the 911 box and move on at the end of the summer. also are you stretching yourself to get one or is it budgeted for along with maintenance.

if its the first , and in the budget then I would be doing one of three things

A/ buy a well specced high miler or one with a known issue very cheap mid teens send it straight to Hartech get the rebuild or budget allowing the 3.9 conversion and have a very nice and ultra reliable 997 for 26/27k all in.

B/ buy a car with an already rebuilt engine for 25/27k but make sure that its a full rebuild as many advertising a rebuild have only replaced the one scored cylinder or maybe the 1 bank of three as its usually 4, 5,6, that go due.

C/ Buy a car enjoy it knowing that its only a small percentage of these cars that suffer borescore and should you be one of the unlucky ones , know you brought the car knowing it might happen get it sent off and rebuilt and get back to enjoying it.

the advantage of plan C is should it not go bang you have a rebuild pot unused that can be put towards your next car. the disadvantage is you may be without if for a few weeks while its in for a rebuild . having said that its not a catastrophic failure and more of a gradual decline slowly using more oil and sounding a bit rattly so no reason why you couldn't drive it right up until the day it goes in for the work.

The other thing you need to be aware of is IMS failure this is a weakness in the IMS bearing on the early cars and by march 06 all were using the newer better IMS bearing some 05 cars have the newer bearing but you can only tell by checking the engine number .

Also worth noting that the general consensus is that the 997.1 3.6 manual is the least likely to suffer Borescore in general less 3.6 cars get borescore and in general manual cars suffer less than tip cars due to the tip using second to pull away and this adds strain to the engine.


the ideal and widely accepted way to minimise risk of scoring is to change the oil at best 6 monthly or at 5k miles and minimum yearly and at 10k miles change the oil to a thicker viscosity ideally 10w50 at min 5W40 Hartech recommend Millers nano plus oil which I use but the viscosity is more important than the brand IMO . fully warm the car up driving at under 3k revs until fully warmed up this is due to the varying metals expanding differently and seems to be when Most scoring damage car occur. there are other things like fitting a LTT, centre rad etc that some consider a good idea.but theres much debate about those options , I did fit a LTT to my gen1.

but dont get to caught up in the negative hype with borescore , I had my tiptronic 997.1 for 4.5 years did 50k miles sold it on 89k miles had it borescoped and it was clean as a whistle. and other than follow the good practices around oil and warm up. I am not a very mechanically sympathetic driver , so it got driven hard a lot of the time

Thumb Thumb good luck with the hunt for what you decide suits you. Thumb


This is very helpful.

A stupid question -- when you say "wait for it to warm up" I presume you mean the oil temp gauge on the left and not the engine temp gauge ? My oil temp gauge takes longer to warm up and OH has been instructed NOT to do anything stupid until that is warm
 
  
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pzero
General
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Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 5282
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

M&MD&D wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:
The fact your asking about borescore makes me think your budget it for a 997.1 Carrera/S, So unless I am mistaken I won't touch on Turbos GTcars and 997.2s

Much IMO depends on how long are you keeping the car . for instance is it a love that you intend to keep for 5 plus years or is it just to tick the 911 box and move on at the end of the summer. also are you stretching yourself to get one or is it budgeted for along with maintenance.

if its the first , and in the budget then I would be doing one of three things

A/ buy a well specced high miler or one with a known issue very cheap mid teens send it straight to Hartech get the rebuild or budget allowing the 3.9 conversion and have a very nice and ultra reliable 997 for 26/27k all in.

B/ buy a car with an already rebuilt engine for 25/27k but make sure that its a full rebuild as many advertising a rebuild have only replaced the one scored cylinder or maybe the 1 bank of three as its usually 4, 5,6, that go due.

C/ Buy a car enjoy it knowing that its only a small percentage of these cars that suffer borescore and should you be one of the unlucky ones , know you brought the car knowing it might happen get it sent off and rebuilt and get back to enjoying it.

the advantage of plan C is should it not go bang you have a rebuild pot unused that can be put towards your next car. the disadvantage is you may be without if for a few weeks while its in for a rebuild . having said that its not a catastrophic failure and more of a gradual decline slowly using more oil and sounding a bit rattly so no reason why you couldn't drive it right up until the day it goes in for the work.

The other thing you need to be aware of is IMS failure this is a weakness in the IMS bearing on the early cars and by march 06 all were using the newer better IMS bearing some 05 cars have the newer bearing but you can only tell by checking the engine number .

Also worth noting that the general consensus is that the 997.1 3.6 manual is the least likely to suffer Borescore in general less 3.6 cars get borescore and in general manual cars suffer less than tip cars due to the tip using second to pull away and this adds strain to the engine.


the ideal and widely accepted way to minimise risk of scoring is to change the oil at best 6 monthly or at 5k miles and minimum yearly and at 10k miles change the oil to a thicker viscosity ideally 10w50 at min 5W40 Hartech recommend Millers nano plus oil which I use but the viscosity is more important than the brand IMO . fully warm the car up driving at under 3k revs until fully warmed up this is due to the varying metals expanding differently and seems to be when Most scoring damage car occur. there are other things like fitting a LTT, centre rad etc that some consider a good idea.but theres much debate about those options , I did fit a LTT to my gen1.

but dont get to caught up in the negative hype with borescore , I had my tiptronic 997.1 for 4.5 years did 50k miles sold it on 89k miles had it borescoped and it was clean as a whistle. and other than follow the good practices around oil and warm up. I am not a very mechanically sympathetic driver , so it got driven hard a lot of the time

Thumb Thumb good luck with the hunt for what you decide suits you. Thumb


This is very helpful.

A stupid question -- when you say "wait for it to warm up" I presume you mean the oil temp gauge on the left and not the engine temp gauge ? My oil temp gauge takes longer to warm up and OH has been instructed NOT to do anything stupid until that is warm


Correct.
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villaman
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Joined: 05 Mar 2019
Posts: 47
Location: North Staffordshire


PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:02 am    Post subject: Great advice Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
cheshire911 wrote:


The reality is that this bore scoring (and IMS faikure) is totally unpredictable. It has no relationship to mileage or garage queens. There is some relationship on tiptronics v manual box with tip autos having higher risk. It is Russian Roulette so its down to each purchaser and their attitude to risk. You might get away with 50k miles use with no problem. Or you may not and incur £12k rebuild at Hartech which you'll never recover at resale but will make the car a long term car that is future-proof from these pre-rebuild ailments.

Only you can decide with your attitude to risk.
They are grest cars, but carry these risks. You may be lucky, you may not.


I couldn't agree more with attitude to risk as I am sure you know after owning my reliable and cheap to maintain 997.1 tip for 4.5 years I went out and brought an ultra reliable 997.2 18 months ago .

In the past 12 months the 997.2 has needed coolant pipes replacing a gearbox rebuild, new clutch and flywheel and an engine rebuild cost 25k so these things do happen unexpectedly even if you have brought an ultra reliable 997.2 .

Will I get that 25k back , almost certainly not . you can be cup half empty about it or cup half full about it . I intend to keep the 997.2 for at least another 3 years that will mean I have owned 997s for 9 years and spent circa £30,000 on maintaining them excluding the other 25k spent on mods Grin but put the mods aside as it was my choice

30k over 9 years thats £3,333 pa the gen1 I sold for 3k more than I paid for it , the gen2 will depreciate but not like most other marques so lets assume I may lose 15k on it ,thats a total cost of 911 ownership over 9 years of £42,000 an ave of £4,666 pa If I had owned a bland euro box like say a 65k BMW or Merc for 9 years I would have easily lost 42k if not more , and as my car is also my hobby we need to also take into account what a hobby like golf would cost for green fees membership etc for 9 years , probably another 30k or more .

So despite the cost I still consider my ownership a very cheap 9 years of 911 driving and enjoying as my daily drive and my hobby. and so much more fun than owning a bland euro box and playing golf Floor

So as Cheshire says its very much about attitude as to whether you end up enjoying your 911 ownership or not. If you want safe get a silver Kia turdingo or similar Floor Floor Floor Floor if you think you only live once get out there and buy yourself a nice 911 Grin Thumb Thumb


Hi Phil,

I read your comments with great interest...very informative and interesting indeed.

Sorry to read of your gen 2 rebuild......my I please ask what caused this in a gen 2 car....?

I understood them to be largely immune to going bang.

May I to ask what mods you've done to you car.

Chees Simon
 
  
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stucart
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Joined: 24 Apr 2013
Posts: 549
Location: staffordshire 07 997 C4S


PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could be here a while with the last question Floor
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Previously - 997 C4S Tip-S, 2007, Silver/Red and Black Leather, PSE, Sports Chrono, Turbo wheels.
 
  
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glenwells
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Aug 2015
Posts: 125



PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:30 am    Post subject: did you get the potential car checked? Reply with quote

Hi

I read your post several times because it appeared that you may be considering buying a car that you may know has some bore scoring already?

Thats not an issue so long as the price is right by that I mean significantly below book. So if it is 5K, 6K or more below book price then that money can be squirreled towards the 'maybe' future work if it were ever needed.

If you are buying it because it is cheaper and I do not mean to question your finances, and you do not have 8 to 10K if a future build were needed then my personal 'life risk bankbalanceometer' would make me walk away.

There are other factors to consider.

Who said it has borescored?
I had Baz Hart and co look at my car 20 months ago and what was clear is that dependant upon the kit you use the light it has, the angle the camera is at AND the skill of the engineer it can take on very different appearances.

Whilst my car was there I was shown another engine that was already apart and a camera evaluated the 'scoring' well dependant upon how you handled the camera it could look really bad to nothing and in running your fingers over the marks you could hardly feel anything.

To complicate matters some light markings in cylinders may have been there from the off - or bore scoring just starting.

Does the car in question have any other signs or symptoms? Oil consumption, ticking from lower rear engine, blackened exhaust tips?
It is easy for a seller to say it uses no oil and clean off the exhaust tips (if they were unscrupulous).

In prece
Is it cheap enough?
Could you wait for another similar car without that assessment?
Would that knowledge be a nagging doubt and clip your enjoyment?
Do you have reasonable access to funds to fix it if it needed it?

There is plenty you can do to reduce the risk of progression of confirmed bore-scoring - best oil, warm up, cool down, low temp stat, no low revs high load scenarios etc but it is usually progressive on a how long is a piece of string calculation.

I hope that you get the car you want and enjoy it.

Regards
Glen
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 15331
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Great advice Reply with quote

villaman wrote:


Hi Phil,

I read your comments with great interest...very informative and interesting indeed.

Sorry to read of your gen 2 rebuild......my I please ask what caused this in a gen 2 car....?

I understood them to be largely immune to going bang.

May I to ask what mods you've done to you car.



The story of Phil's 997.2 issues are documented in this thread.

Make yourself a cup of tea and settle down for a long read.

---> http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=129386&start=40&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
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ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15192
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Terry, thats saves a lot of repeated info Grin in summery the 997.2 needing a rebuild was not down to a weakness in the car but due to the use of nasty cheap 200cell cats that broke up and were ingested into the engine on overrun , now replaced with Cargraphic trimetal 200 cell cats.

Mods engine
Full cargraphic valved performance exhaust with 200 cell cats
IPD plenum TB kit
Fabspeed carbon twin cone induction kit
in the process of having a Chipwizards remap on it.

re the rest of the mods , its a very long list of internal and external mods the most obvious I guess is the GT3RS front , rear bumpers ,Carbon wing, side skirts . and the vertini magic concave alloys.

Grin Grin
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resigner
Suzuka


Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 1212



PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP, please bear in mind there are degrees of bore scoring. Mine came up clean to a boroscope 2 weeks ago and has 81k miles Smile But there can be a little bit, which isn't a problem, or a lot, which probably is a problem.

As others will of said, let the oil get warmed up before thrashing it and get the oil changed every year, not every 2 as porsche say. Don't go above 3000 RPM until the engine oil is warmed. You need the temp needle to start moving up off the bottom, but if there isn't any need to push harder, wait until its right up to temp.

There are enough cars around to not buy one with scoring, and please do get any car checked out. Or buy one with, but make sure you get £10k+ off!!

Find a good Indy to look after it and enjoy Smile I am 4 years in and loving it.
 
  
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IggyMunro
Newbie


Joined: 28 Sep 2018
Posts: 3



PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the IMS bearing failure that can affect earlier cars, this is can be a catastrophic failure if it goes so I consider it more important than bore score. When I bought my 2004 C2 Manual 3.6 six months ago I knew the clutch needed replaced because it was very heavy so I had the IMS done (and the oil seal) at the same time. in fact it was not far off a minor service so I had that done too to save on oil & Northway charged around £2000 for parts & labour which I thought was well worth it for the peace of mind. When I bought the car I factored that cost in.

Bore Scoring is less likely in my model compared to others, although it could happen, but I am prepared to risk that for the chance to drive such an amazing car. Gen 2 911's are way more expensive & were not in my budget so it was either a Gen 2 Cayman or Gen 1 911, which for me was a very easy choice! If you are very risk averse maybe consider a Gen 2 Cayman, they are brilliant cars & no bore scoring, but that does open that age old can of worms comparing 911s to Caymans..... Laughing

Last edited by IggyMunro on Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15192
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As resigner says , theres a big difference between borescuff which is in all engines from all marques and Borescore as we know it in these cars , so it is important to use someone who knows what they are looking at to do the scope checks.

Also incase anyone needs the info re engine numbers for the new and old IMS bearings here it is.

Last IMS revision before no IMS (Gen2 MA1 block):

997 Carrera 3.6 with engine numbers from M96/0569507475 are the new IMS design.

M96/05 = 997 3.6 Carrera NA
6 = 6 cylinders
9 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
07475 = cumulative production serial

This means some MY2005 benefit and all MY2006 onwards benefit.


997 Carrera S 3.8 with engine numbers from M97/0168509790 are the new IMS design.

M97/01 = 997 3.8 Carrera NA
6 = 6 cylinders
8 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
09790 = cumulative production serial

This means some MY2005 benefit and all MY2006 onwards benefit.
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