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heed
Newbie


Joined: 24 Jan 2019
Posts: 37



PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: Looking at first 996 Reply with quote

Hi,

New here (and to Porsche) Smile and am going to see a C2 shortly. I plan to get a PPI from an indy if the car looks good, but I wondered if I could elicit thoughts on the things to look for before paying for a PPI. The things that would make you walk away.

For the sake of argument we can assume the seller is a dealer with a decent reputation and car is HPI clear.

Let's assume the car has done at least 70K miles (I'm actually looking at ones more in the 80s-90s).

Things I'm thinking about are:

- good history with regular OPC/indy services.
- invoices for things done.
- it's had a clutch at some point
- cracks / age in the coolant tank
- shakes / rattles etc
- check the AC works properly and is cold
- check discs for warps / wear.


Any other telltale signs that it's best to walk away and not bother with a PPI? I was thinking maybe the rads, but I don't know how one would check these prior to a PPI.

Would you get a borescope on a 3.6 C2 2003/4?
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 15976
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi & Welcome.

You've done the first right move & come here for advice. I walked in to my purchase blind and only joined the forum afterwards........5 years ago today when we agreed the deal Smile

Any car at this age is going to show signs of, er....it's age. You've nailed it with what you've listed but a few others I'd be looking out for (but not deal breakers - just an idea how it's been treated):

Exhaust manifold to head bolts.
Weeping bell housing.
MOT history.
Inside face of each disc.
Condition of long aircon pipe that runs along the driverside sill + jacking points.

Non of the above are walk away issues, just give you an idea of the car and negotiating tools when agreeing a price. Might want to look up what the cost to sort some of the above are.

But main one:

BORESCORE, especially on a tip. If it scares the hell out of you , then buy a 3.4 or budget in a full engine rebuild. Not saying they all have it but make sure you get it checked out.

thumbsup

ps: Are you from Lancashire too?
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Paynewright
Monza


Joined: 17 Apr 2018
Posts: 158
Location: Nr Lutterworth Leics


PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots on the internet - google is your friend!

My 0.02p worth:-

Check for oil leak between engine and gearbox ££££ as usually do other stuff at same time eg clutch, IMS.

Check coil pack heat shields present - can usually see them through rear wheel arches

Check condition of exhaust system & manifold bolts - often corroded beyond recognition again can be ££££ to fix as shear off and need drilling out.

Check visible rigid brake lines - each corner and under passenger side - rusty lines £££ / ££££ to replace.

Looking from rear check the LHS exhaust for sootyness - can be indicator of bore scoring.

N rated tyres all round < 5 years old (week / year usually embossed in the moulding

Then just general stuff - panel gaps, paint matching & everything works

Ian
 
  
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heed
Newbie


Joined: 24 Jan 2019
Posts: 37



PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Alex,

'fraid not. Hampshire!

Thanks a lot for your reply. I might be going to look at a C2 with an x51. I read on, I think, revolution, that power pack 996's are more likely to have scoring issues. Is that something that's been seen on these forums do you know?

Can the 25 extra horses make them that much more likely to have scoring issues than the standard engine, or possibly scoring is a function of how hard the car has been driven (and maybe the power pack cars get driven harder Grin Grin )?
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 15331
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't recall reading anything that would make the X51 cars anything to be worried about over and above the standard cars.

The guru of 996.1 X51 was the erstwhile member GT4. Sadly he no longer frequents these pages but it's worth searching out anything he had to say about them.

Including eg this --->

Click here --> http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=60293&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=x51

ps. Welcome to 911uk
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ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 15976
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
I don't recall reading anything that would make the X51 cars anything to be worried about over and above the standard cars.

The guru of 996.1 X51 was the erstwhile member GT4. Sadly he no longer frequents these pages but it's worth searching out anything he had to say about them.

Including eg this --->

Click here --> http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=60293&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=x51

ps. Welcome to 911uk



ALL THAT ^^^^^^^^
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Jamesx19
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 Jul 2015
Posts: 420
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome,

I'd only add to what has already been said, by saying go and look at as many cars as possible. That will give you a better idea what are good and bad cars.

A full PPI is recommended but can start getting expensive if you don't buy the thing. (at up to £250 for some places) Feel free to ask opinions on here.

Good luck
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Griffter
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 298



PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s a very good idea to “coarse filter” cars yourself before employing a PPI. Bear in mind that any 996 will need things doing, so don’t waste your time looking for a car that needs nothing. The above is a good starting point for a checklist. I’d add electrics operation, suspension bushings and top mounts and silencers (they rot at the seams).

Having said that, the only two things I’d walk away from are bore scoring - definitely a risk on a 3.6, but limited what you can look for yourself other than sooty tailpipes - and accident damage. Look for panel gaps, wing and door bolts bolts etc that have been disturbed and any rippling of the roof or flanks. The front bumper (PU) will almost certainly have been painted (or it’ll be peppered with stone chips). Actually there’s a third I’d walk away from and that’s the “feel” of the car. Some cars just give me a bad vibe, but you can only tell by viewing / driving yourself.

Anything else can be fixed and should be negotiable, but obviously some vendors are more realistic than others (as are some buyers!) and only you know how much you’ve got to spend and how much chasing around you’re prepared to do to put things right.

Good luck, keep us posted.
 
  
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g911omr
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 276



PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My advice would be to look at a few cars. I looked at probably 10 or so before feeling confident enough to make a decision. Funnily the only cars worth buying was the first and last that I viewed, but it took the 8 cars in between for me to build up a bit of knowledge on what to expect for the ££'s I was prepared to spend.
Get a good one and they are great cars.
 
  
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Hooner
Silverstone


Joined: 03 May 2018
Posts: 137
Location: Co Antrim,NI


PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi and welcome, The most important thing has to be the overall condition of the car, a well looked after car with regular oil changes, a full service history with plenty of pampering is a good place to start. Im also a believer in the feel for the car you can tell if it's been loved or not, take it for decent spin test the brakes coolant temp, oil pressure, check the colour of the oil too. I think the 3.4 is the best buy plus there are plenty of bargains out there most being from private sellers,with all the info from everyone above you're good to go, happy hunting good luck Thumb
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sportsandclassic
Approved Trader


Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 258
Location: Nether Alderley Cheshire


PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, welcome to the forum.

The 996 cars are fantastic cars and should reward the owner with many happy miles. Some do have issues and knowing what to look for is a huge help when deciding to purchase one.

They are great value for money as far as Porsche cars are concerned.

What sort of budget did you have in mind ?

I ask that as it would be helpful to know as this dictates what you condition of car you can expect to get with the amount of cash you want to spend.

Mike
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77szymon
Monza


Joined: 14 Mar 2018
Posts: 248
Location: UK

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi & welcome,

my points:

history- not only from OPC/indy a lot of this forum members are servicing these cars by themselves so there is no history (only invoices) but cars are done to the highest standard - so you can miss perfect car

AOS you can try to check this out by taking out oil filler cap on runing engine if very difficult you are looking on AOS replacment = big job

as pointed out earlier oil/coolant leak to check this properly you have to go under car if you see oil swaet on engine/gearbox connection you are looking on RMS or IMS leak = big job. Now coolant - any visible leak on engine/gearbox N/S most likely oil cooler seals or oil cooler itself worn out = big job


These job will be expesive to do as RMS IMS - gearbox out, AOS Oil Cooler depends on bolts condition you will be able to do it with gearbox out only but if bolts are like mine BAD = engine out.
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Steve Gom
Monza


Joined: 04 May 2015
Posts: 186
Location: Stakeford, Northumberland


PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum Heed!

I acquired my 996 nearly 4 years ago. For the 6 months prior to this I spent a lot of time researching the 996, this involved a lot of time reading through this great forum. During this period I was able to narrow my requirements, essential before you start viewing any cars for sale. Also, I was able to set out a list of potential issues to watch out for and the costs to tackle them. I wanted an early 3.4, manual (better IMS and less prone to bore score) 2 wheel drive car but was pretty open to the spec and colour generally. My budget was £12,000.

In late 2014 £10K would buy you an early 996 with less than 100K mikes on the clock, in a wide range of mechanical/cosmetic condition, the 996 secret wasn't completely out at this time, so there were some 'bargain' cars still around.

I saw 6 cars, 2 of the first were described as 'mint'. One of these was at a local indy dealer, a '99 C2 76K miles FSH and recent £2K spend for MOT, in midnight blue (no sunroof) with light grey interior and £2K over my budget. I thought this would set the bar or at least act as a good yard stick.
The other car 98, manual C2 in artic silver with black interior, private sale and located over 200 miles away. Both were hugely disappointing when I inspected these cars against my 'problem check list'.

With hindsight, the 3rd car I saw was probably the best. 99 C2 manual zenith blue, grey interior. I was the first to see it, the miles were higher at 124,000 than anything I'd seen and it had 10 owners. However, it had been with the seller for the last 7 years in which time he'd spent £10,000 on an engine rebuild in 2013 via RPM in Knaresborough and there were loads of other bills for rads condensers, brakes 4 X bottom arms, top mounts and a recent clutch and this car was only for sale at £12,500!!
I was initially a little negative on the car due to the engine work and a more worn interior and lots of stone chips and scruffy alloys than I'd seen up to this point, but having been reassured the engine work was a real asset I went back to the vendor only to be told the car was now sold.

I ended up securing a 1997 C2 90K miles which was fairly local through a private sale. The car hadn't been serviced for 2 years but had done less than 2K miles in this period by the current 8th owner. It came with a full folder of maintenance and bills for over £20K which stretched back over the car's entire life, with some sales documentation for 3 previous sales which were handled by respected independent Porsche specialists. The interior was amazing, the paintwork was straight, no smoke or funny noises from the engine and it had new stainless back boxes. The car drove well, yet it needed nearly every job on my 'works check list' which I'd calculated to be about £5K to sort out.
Having explained this to the owner a deal was negotiated and I acquired the car, and a long list of improvement/maintenance jobs.

Nearly 4 years on I've spent more on the car than I paid for it, but as I've been doing the works gradually over time it's been manageable and it's given me huge satisfaction along the way. I've even managed to put a contingency fund together since 2015 which was aimed at softening the blow of a major engine defect/rebuild, but I haven't needed this so far and the car drives really well now. Never say ‘never’ though.
There's still some work to do with a M030 kit lined up for this spring but much more stuff I'd like to do. This will get done over time so don't be too put off my work on any prospective car you see, just be realistic on the costs to do this, especially if you’re not going to be wielding the spanners yourself.

A PPI, and particularly a borescope for a 3.6, are recommend even when buying from a dealer. Just make sure the borescope is performed by a Porsche Specialist and the findings can be properly interpreted.These are great cars and well worth the investment in cash and time, I believe there is no more rewarding a car to own or drive than a good 996.
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heed
Newbie


Joined: 24 Jan 2019
Posts: 37



PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, thanks everyone for the replies. I'm amazed at the number and depth of responses.

I went to look at a 40th Anniversary 996 this morning. I'm actually on the hunt for a C4S but the 40th car piqued my interest for sure.

Needless to say the car was OKish. It needed a new clutch, which was already agreed by the dealer (with the IMS upgrade) but that sort of ruined the test drive. It was literally flying off to 6,000 revs when you remotely put your foot down in 3rd.. The AC was not that cold, even when I left it on full for 5 minutes.

Anyway, the history looked good. Lots of OPC services. I was concerned about seeing two years worth of invoices where there seemed to be an attempt to chase down faults on various cylinders. I guess it could just have been coil pack and/or tappets so no big deal. But the fault hunting showed up over multiple years.

The long and short of it was when I said I would be looking to get an indy PPI the dealer was borderline angry and literally banged his desk, muttering "right well the car is as good as sold now". It put me right off. I was also accused of "treating it like too much of a science" by looking to get an inspection.

I walked away and the car was sold to someone sight unseen later in the day. I think I did the right thing.


Under the car concerned me the most. I have some photos. Would be good to get folks' thoughts.

The first thing is that the boxes didn't look great. If I understand this right, the outer seam here is gone or going, and the inner ones won't be far behind? So that would eventually be a new set? How much? £800 fitted maybe?




The next thing that I wasn't sure about was this oil leak. I think I accessed it from the drivers side of the car, but I think it was quite central if I remember. What is it that's leaking? I can't quite orient myself from other images on Google to figure it out...



Another thing, this doesn't seem to important of course, but... What's this hole doing here to the left of the black pipe/cable?



Here is something else I'd like to understand better... These bolts look suspiciously clean and new. What work was likely done here? Or maybe they're just away from the elements?



Finally, this panel didn't seem right. Rear bumper removed and replaced at some point???



Thanks in advance for any insight into these photos!

Last edited by heed on Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 15976
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Not much to worry about with any of that IMHO apart from maybe the oil leak. At a quick guess its a spark plug tube leaking - around £7 to fix. The back boxes can be replaced by Top Gear ones for around £450 + fitting (say 2 hours labour). The bumpers on these cars are frequently removed for various jobs. I wouldn't worry if it was slightly out of line as someone has probably refit it without any attention to detail. The black cable is the earth strap, the hole looks like it just has a grommet missing:


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T8
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General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heed wrote:


The long and short of it was when I said I would be looking to get an indy PPI the dealer was borderline angry and literally banged his desk, muttering "right well the car is as good as sold now". It put me right off. I was also accused of "treating it like too much of a science" by looking to get an inspection.

I walked away and the car was sold to someone sight unseen later in the day. I think I did the right thing.



I think you did the right thing too. There's plenty of other cars out there. Thumb
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sportsandclassic
Approved Trader


Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 258
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You say you are after a 4s.....

We have one for sale.. http://sportsandclassic.com/cars-for-sale/
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 15976
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sportsandclassic wrote:
You say you are after a 4s.....

We have one for sale.. http://sportsandclassic.com/cars-for-sale/


That's a seriously nice example Mike. thumbsup
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HSC911
Long Beach


Joined: 23 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heed wrote:
I went to look at a 40th Anniversary 996 this morning. I'm actually on the hunt for a C4S but the 40th car piqued my interest for sure


Nice!



heed wrote:
The long and short of it was when I said I would be looking to get an indy PPI the dealer was borderline angry and literally banged his desk, muttering "right well the car is as good as sold now". It put me right off. I was also accused of "treating it like too much of a science" by looking to get an inspection


Bandit

Who was the dealer Dont know

And Welcome

Thumb
 
  
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Steve Gom
Monza


Joined: 04 May 2015
Posts: 186
Location: Stakeford, Northumberland


PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heed - exhausts are a consumable. Those Top Gear units mentioned by Alex are good value and made by a company with a good reputation. They do a switchable set for £950 which are similar to the hugely expensive PSE.

Good luck with your search, the availability of stock is like to increase as we move into Spring. Just be patient to ensure you get the car for you want but don't be put off by a car needing some work, as long at its not a full engine rebuild.
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