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wjk_glynn
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:59 am    Post subject: 997.2 3.8L engine failure - teardown video by Jake Raby Reply with quote

Began as a thread on Rennlist: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/1120276-997-2-3-8-engine-failure.html

Jake Raby has posted the first teardown video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02HxKanh-JY

Just an FYI...

Karl.
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mick997
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:45 am    Post subject: MA1 engine bore scoring - the smoking gun Reply with quote

https://www.jzmporsche.com/news/gen-2-bore-scoring-smoking-gun/
 
  
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Magic919
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a similar thread the other day.
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Phil 997
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He hasn't said anything Hartech haven't already told us , except he omitted to find out what the weather conditions were and did the owner hoon it from cold in very cold weather as Hartech tell us this is the cause of all the gen2 failures they have seen. and when they say all it is a very very low number. Thumb
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Paul Ricard


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone posted in the other thread that he's a bit of a negative Nancy. I get that people rate his work, but having see Baz contribution to the Rennlist thread that spawned the video of the year down, along with, as Phil says, what Baz has shared with us already, this isn't something to be concerned about.
I'll leave it to the Yanks to get their knickers in a knot
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Alex
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No doubt they'll invent some snake oil myth they can capitalise on.
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bazhart
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only reason for me posting on this subject is to repeat what I have already posted many months ago and to add information for readers to make of what they will.

Firstly can we make the distinction between "bore scoring", "hot seizures" and "cold seizures". and the influence of oil types and viscosities and ambient conditions on all three.

"Bore scoring" occurs when the cylinder block is at the right temperature and so was the piston (so clearances were OK) just before a minute piece of silicon breaks free from its matrix on the cylinder wall and is trapped between the piston face under load and the cylinder wall.

The load/area distinction then puts ALL the load from the piston driving the con-rod and crankshaft (normally shared across a wide area of the piston face at 90 degrees to the gudgeon pin) on the piece of debris where the increased load/over area enables it to penetrate the oil film, digging into the piston surface and rubs up and down the bore before often escaping with the oil.

Like a pot hole on a road (where a piece of stone moves in the direction of travel and tends to elongate the hole) the damage releases more pieces of silicon as it travels up and down the bore and they join in the damaged area elongating the bore score.

Because the load was concentrated where the piece became loose (which is the thrust face because that is where since new the forces have been greater pressing against the cylinder matrix) the other side of the piston and cylinder bore are undamaged.

This type of failure has been seen before in Alusil after several hundreds of thousands of miles (944/968) where the piston coating is hard and much more frequently in Lokasil (because the silicon particles are bigger and less well bonded into the matrix).

Thicker oil can result in a slightly thicker oil film between the piston and cylinder bore and may extend life slightly but eventually cannot protect the damage mode for ever.

"Hot seizing" is where the piston has become bigger than the bore it is supposed to fit into with a clearance because something has increased the temperature dramatically.

This can be because the cylinder block is too hot (due to lack of coolant or coolant flow) or more often because the ignition has made the piston much hotter than normal (fuel, weak mixture, too much ignition advance etc).

Although cylinder bores should be round, pistons are not and are oval (because the thrust load is at 90 degrees to the gudgeon pin) so the part of the piston that grows too big is usually across the thrust face and because the piston is now bigger than the cylinder bore, it squeezes out any oil film resulting in metal to metal contact which raises the temperature locally so much there is temporary melting and setting of parts of the piston thrust face and it digs into the cylinder bore where the friction further increases localised temperatures and the result is a cylinder bore and piston scored (or seized) on both thrust and the opposite face. Once again although better oils may delay failure it usually will not prevent the failure.

"Cold seizures" in our terminology at Hartech (others may use other descriptions) is where the piston thrust face may or may not have been damaged but some part of the piston no longer has clearance between itself and a part of the cylinder bore - not because there is a fault in the settings, fuel or coolant - but simply because the piston has heated up and expanded before the cylinder bore and reduced the clearance to zero resulting in too much pressure between the piston area that fails and the cylinder bore and causing the rubbing described in a "hot seizure", the rapid temperature rise resulting and the localised scoring.

Pistons skirts do distort but so does the local area of the cylinder bore subjected to this rapid local temperature rise. Since the temperature rise is on the surface of the cylinder bore - just there the surface expands into the bore resulting in creating another localised high pressure are that may be in the thrust face area or not.

"Cold seizing" does not mean the engine is not warm or the coolant is not at normal running temperature it means that the heat has not yet soaked fully into every area of the cylinder block distorting some areas and reducing expansion generally elsewhere.

Pistons heat up and expand quicker than cylinder bores.

The dimensional changes during thermal expansion take place as a proportion of the size so bigger pistons expand more than smaller ones. As a result cold seizures are more common in big diesel engines (on ships) than small petrol engines but when they do occur in petrol engines they are more likely to have relatively big pistons commonly in the 100mm diameter size much more than say 70 or 80 mm. If you had an engine with a piston 10 times bigger than a 9A1 piston (i.e. 1020mm) you could not run it with a piston clearance of 10 times as much because the weight of the piston would slap against the cylinder wall and squeeze out the oil film as the engine ran - so cold seizures are more of a problem.

When metals are formed from heat (castings, extrusions, hot rolling etc) the inside of any large cross sections remain hotter while the outside cools first. The outside freezes as it cools while the inside continues to shrink in size as it cools later and this always leaves a stress pulling inwards towards the centre of a thick section.

If you bore a hole in a hot rolled piece of bar and then gently heat it - when it has cooled again, the centre will usually be smaller than it was when you bored it as a result.

Similarly in castings you have the highest temperature gradient between hot (when it was molten) and cool (when it was all at ambient) so all castings retain internal stresses pulling inwards at the thickest sections.

Machining the castings releases stresses that were retained in the areas you have just machined away so if they are machined almost to finished size and then undergo a stress releasing process and then finally machined - it minimises the problem and retains the best shape stability but this is time consuming and costly.

In volume production it is difficult to build into the process stress releasing features and often they are ignored. I don't know by what process the 9A1 cylinder blocks are manufactured regarding stress relieving (does anyone else?).

However - if scoring/seizing marks are NOT ON THE THRUST FACE but are further around the circumference of the cylinder bore (and therefore opposite an area of the piston where the clearances are usually smallest) something has distorted the cylinder where the scoring marks are and reduced the clearance resulting from the cylinder no longer being round but having circumferential areas where if you measure across the diameter the bore is smaller than it was when it was originally manufactured.

Those used to 2 strokes decades ago will already know that cylinder stud pressures can distort these areas of cylinder bores and stop them being as round as they were designed to be when the piston ovality was tested and formulated resulting in cold seizures.

IF an engine suffers a typical "cold seizure" (in our terminology), and it is in an area where there is thicker sections of the casting (for studs etc) it is usually cased by distortion.

If an engine suffers a typical "cold seizure" in line with a large section change in the cylinder block casting it is often because over time the continual heating and cooling cycles have minutely released the stress that was retained in the thick section by pulling inwards and changing the shape. The clue is in what part of the piston it affected and where in the cylinder block there are large section changes.

If a failure has an age related stress releasing problem it will not occur when they are new and it will take many cycles to show itself. There will come a time when all the retained stresses are released and the shape is permanent.

If when this happens, there is still sufficient bore clearances no damage will result.

If a bore is gradually distorting and in so doing reducing the bore to piston clearances in a particular area over time, it will reveal itself when the engine has been put under a high load before the block has fully warmed up and expanded - so is more likely in winter than summer.

Unfortunately, because there has been a gradual almost imperceptible change, driving from cold just like the owner has got away with perhaps for years will suddenly catch him out resulting in seizing/scoring.

Recognising the scoring being opposite the crankcase large section where the main bearing shells sit and where the casting is joined to the cylinder bore, combined with the scoring not being at the biggest part of the piston but on either side resulted in us thinking it may be caused by age related stress relieving and so we attempted to measure the failed bore all round and up and down and the undamaged ones next to it.

In every single one of the 5 we measured the scoring was on an end cylinder and the adjacent cylinder had shrunk by about half the amount the failed one had while the furthest away was still round. This would be typical of a casting in which the molten metal was perhaps hotter than usual (or the mould cooler) and the flow cooled one end sooner than the other (although this is just typical engineering opinion trying to link cause and effect).

We have measured cylinders in engines we have rebuilt that had a completely different fault - we have found to all still be perfectly round.

In the early stages of diagnosis there are not enough samples around to be sure about anything and engineers have to draw on their experience and try and connect it to the evidence. Anyone making grand statements about the eventual outcome at this stage are just being dramatic for effect and not being calm and logical (especially if they have not carried out any forensic investigations themselves like we have).

I am not sure what the cause is, I cannot tell if there will be a time or mileage limit to the distortion, how many engines may be affected and if it was a problem that has been recognised in manufacture and eliminated.

I can tell you that the undamaged cylinders we measured next to the damaged ones had piston clearances reduced to under half a thou across the diameters near the crank shell locations and that the upper undamaged areas of the cylinders that had scored/seized had shrunk more than that. I can also confirm that they all failed during the winter.

Although the coolant and oil may well be running at the same temperature summer or winter, the outside of the cylinder block will not and the block will expand more in the summer and quicker.

The difference in ambient temperatures summer to winter may be only 20 or 25 degrees (UK) whereas the difference in cold to hot running temperatures will be 65 to 70 degrees in summer but perhaps 100 degrees in winter - so if the shrinkage is slow over time it is most likely to reveal itself in the winter where the piston will heat up as quickly and expand just as much and as fast summer or winter but the cylinder block will lag further behind it.

If our conclusion (admittedly based on a very small sample but never the less consistent) is right, oil types will make little difference and frankly be a distraction although there is never an argument not to use the best oil you can get hold of nor not to increase the viscosity rating as engines wear and clearances increase as a result.

I have no problem if you disagree with our opinion, it makes no difference to us but I do hope that in the interests of accuracy, and helping those without the benefit of our analysis - anyone posting alternatives can back up their opinion with similarly convincing evidence and actual experiences.

Baz
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Paul Ricard


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Baz we trust Thumb
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Alex
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FZP wrote:
In Baz we trust Thumb


yes
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Phil 997
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
FZP wrote:
In Baz we trust Thumb


yes


Grin Thumb Agree Yeah
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Alex
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's not enough REAL Engineers in the motor trade.......which is a shame.
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MisterCorn
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
There's not enough REAL Engineers in the motor trade.......which is a shame.


Going a bit OT, but to be honest I'm not surprised. A lot of 'The motor trade' involves changing parts on cars, looking at cause and effect to work out where things have gone wrong, then changing the parts which broke, as well as other mechanical tasks which are relatively predictable such as changing worn suspension parts, radiators, condesnsers, and regular servicing. This isn't meant to take away from the skill and expertise of what these people do, but it isn't engineering. There are of course exceptions to this outside of the mainstream work where solutions do have to be found for custom work or to fix original design problems (Baz, Ken, Matt,etc), but by and large the tasks of engineering and mechanic and two distinct skill sets without a massive overlap. I want an engineer to design the parts on my car and a mechanic to fit them. Just in the same way I would want an architect to design a house but I wouldn't be keen on his building a wall.

To quote Wikipedia, 'Engineers are professionals who invent, design, analyze, build, and test machines, systems, structures and materials to fulfill objectives and requirements while considering the limitations imposed by practicality, regulation, safety, and cost'.

<RANT>Next thing we will have the technician who services the boiler calling himself an engineer, or somebody who stays at home all day becoming a domestic engineer.</RANT>

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Alex
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a lot of bullshitters in the trade...........which really is a shame. If they applied their mind in educating themselves in their trade instead of bullshitting, they'd probably do better for themselves.

By Engineer, I didn't mean on paper, but all the traits of a good Engineer. You only have to spend half hour in your local kwikfit to see which lads have it and which (most) don't.
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deMort
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I class myself as a Car Mechanic .. not a technician .. to me thats a modern word .. tell anyone you are a Mechanic and they know what you do .

I vist my Dentist .. his assistant is a dental Technician .. whilst not trying to be rude she or he is the assistant to the dentist .

I am not and never will be an Engineer .. thats a totally diferent job and a very specialised one at that .. from my limited perseption then it takes years and years to become an engineer ..

To go from school to being qualified as a car mechanic these days is 2 years !!! .. stuff me i did 5 when i started .. obviously the kids these days are far more intelligent ..

Yeah right ... but for an Engineer .. far longer .

For Baz .. that post will have taken you a very long time .. i thank you for that and would just like to add .. i may have been a Mechanic for 37 years but i learn a lot from what you post and it all makes sense to me ... we do very different jobs and there is no were else i could lean things like this ..


Porsche barely train the mechanics to fix the cars let alone this level of detail .

A small sample is good .. and bad in that its hard to determine the faults with these but time will tell .
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DucatiRob
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The term engineer covers a lot of bases, I work with a lot of 'engineers', some of then actually do some engineering, many don't! I think that a good mechanic who can use their skill and experience to diagnose, dismantle, repair, rebuild and test components/systems successfully can certainly be described as engineers!
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Alex
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trust me Iain - you are an ENGINEER!! 10 minutes of reading your posts prove that......plus confirmation during a quick phone call late evening.

........I've also met a lot of 'Engineers' in my time who I wouldn't even employ as a shithouse cleaner.
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bazhart
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that DeMort, respect to you also for the great posts your provide.

In fact its a good day all round, wedding anniversary, Valentines day and some appreciation - quite unusual.

Mind you the dam cards I got for the wife were plastic covered but when I GOT HOME LAST NIGHT - NO ENVELLOPES INSIDE.

Still a bit of quick thinking this morning and I told her "I look after you so much I've even opened the envelopes for you", but it didn't go down too well.

LOL

Baz
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Phil 997
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bazhart wrote:



Mind you the dam cards I got for the wife were plastic covered but when I GOT HOME LAST NIGHT - NO ENVELLOPES INSIDE.

Still a bit of quick thinking this morning and I told her "I look after you so much I've even opened the envelopes for you", but it didn't go down too well.

LOL

Baz


Floor Floor Floor now that was funny and very quick thinking , I on the other hand am in the dog house as I thought the 14th was tomorrow nooo Hammer Damn wack wack

So I quickly printed this off , strangely still in the dog house Grin
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