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Hans Gruber
Monza


Joined: 24 Mar 2015
Posts: 153
Location: Huddersfield

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:55 pm    Post subject: Strange starting issue, or rather lack of starting Reply with quote

A couple of times recently my C4S hasn’t started, most annoying.

First time was outside my lads school, most irritating as the C4S is the only thing that sets me apart from the homogenous Audi/VW/BMW types...
Turned the key and nothing, lights on but no startee. Embarrassed I walked back home and called a flat bed, as you do. 45 minutes later I headed back and it started first time so all good.

Then last week, just outside Vets4pets it did the same thing, luckily there are a couple of shops to wander around nearby so after 45 minutes in Curry’s and TK Max I returned to a most disgruntled cat in a box and a fully functioning 996.

First thoughts are, could this be temperature related, maybe the 45 minute cool down is the key clue, perhaps a slightly dodgy earth strap somewhere that breaks contact when hot then is fine when cold again. I’m open to suggestions but the odd thing is I use the car every day and it’s only done this twice in as many months...

I await bang on diagnoses from demort or Alex imminently. First one with a hit wins a lolly

P
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 15956
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's either something earth/starter motor lead/strap related or Immobiliser related if you ask me. Is there any clicking/slow cranking/etc. when you try and turn it over or just nothing?
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kurlykris
Indianapolis


Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Posts: 2370
Location: Warwickshire


PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ignition switch is a common problem on the 996, next time give it a good wiggle around, key in and out, wiggle, wiggle Grin
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Hans Gruber
Monza


Joined: 24 Mar 2015
Posts: 153
Location: Huddersfield

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex I knew you would be in there quick! I’m Flattered by the fact that you think it might be an earth strap as I first thought.

Anyways, no click, 13 odd volts on the gauge, no funny noises, no crank, nothing. Ignition lights but not turning. I replaced the starter in August (cost me a cracked rib but that’s another story). I wonder if that could be a clue.

If it is an immmobilser thing I wouldn’t know where to start
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2002 Porsche Carrera 4s
2008 Saab 9-3 Aero ttid - Sold, not arsed
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2019 Skoda Superb Estate - Bored
 
  
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Hans Gruber
Monza


Joined: 24 Mar 2015
Posts: 153
Location: Huddersfield

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurlykris wrote:
Ignition switch is a common problem on the 996, next time give it a good wiggle around, key in and out, wiggle, wiggle Grin


I jiggled, I wiggled, I even got out and rocked the car around. Not sure what the other shoppers thought I was up to. And I just happened to have both keys on me so tried them both to no avail.

I must admit, I do get a bit of a rush from not knowing if I will get home or not each time I jump in. It’s like playing Russian roulette
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 15956
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would've thought anything starter related would at least make a clicking noise of slow crank now and again...........so I'll give with the immobiliser theory or Kris' Wiggle it just a little bit, I want to see you wiggle it just a little bit, as it grooves Embarassed wack
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Hans Gruber
Monza


Joined: 24 Mar 2015
Posts: 153
Location: Huddersfield

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a truely cheesy tune, I was much more of a Playing with Knives man myself...
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 15956
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bizzare inc.
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Hans Gruber
Monza


Joined: 24 Mar 2015
Posts: 153
Location: Huddersfield

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You got it, happy days....
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Ghianightmare
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 278
Location: Dublin


PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could be a corroded terminal on the starter solenoid- or the solenoid is dodgey and No contact when warm.

You need to get at it and check it - just a pain as it is buried behind the alternator. Or just bring it to a qualified person to do it for you. If it was mine, I would try get the wire off and back on, or at least give it a wiggle to make sure it was on properly. Then I would try get a test wire on to it that I could leave in place so that if it wouldn’t start, I could check it easily - with the help of the spare person I would be Insisting drives everywhere with me to turn the ignition on when I’m at the back with the multi meter Very Happy
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BHZ661
Barcelona


Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1302
Location: Milton Keynes


PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds as tho its crank postion sensor , same symptons i had
 
  
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Bluebird911
Nürburgring


Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 445



PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BHZ661 wrote:
Sounds as tho its crank postion sensor , same symptons i had


I was going to suggest this if the engine was turning over, but the OP says he is getting nothing when the key is turned, so I think this is unlikely.

I go along with the suggestions already made, plus possible ignition switch or immobiliser?? These sort of issues where it works sometimes and not others get to me!! However it indicates that there is nothing fundemenally wrong, but something that occurs when warm.

Hope you get it sorted.
 
  
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Stoo.c
Monza


Joined: 07 Apr 2014
Posts: 205
Location: Hertfordshire


PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep cant be the crank sensor as this wont come into play until the engine is at least turning on the starter.
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93 Skyline R33 GTS-t
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ballcock
Sepang


Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2959
Location: Dublin

1996 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds very like trouble I had with my 993, failed to start when warm only, and would restart if left for 30-40 mins, in my case it was, as some above suggested, a stuck starter solenoid which only surfaced when it was hot and resistance increased.
993’s are quite susceptible to this fault due to position of the starter motor and the air getting blown at it from the cylinders .. not sure if 996’s suffer as much from starter motor problems?
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Ex. '99 996 C2 manual coupe.
 
  
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MisterCorn
Long Beach


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 6952
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the lights are staying on I would go for starter solenoid or ignition switch.

MC
 
  
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Ghianightmare
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 278
Location: Dublin


PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it was a normal car, it would be simple case of sticking hammer into engine bay to prompt the solenoid when the engine wouldn’t start... but I don’t think there is a hammer designed that you fit over the alternator and reach the starter in a 911!
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6500
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a feeling this will turn into one of my very long and boreing posts so if you want the answer just skip to the end ..

If you have an earth lead fault or indeed an engine earth lead fault when you try and start it , the huge consumer of power (the starter motor ) will in effect take all the power .. your dash lights would go off , interior lights go off .. basically the starter trys to take all the power through a high resistance lead ... this will lower or cut out the voltage to everything else .. kinda like a flat battery .

Engine earth lead fault and things start to smoke as the car uses any earth it can find .

Its not enough to turn it but it will take away the voltage from everything else on start position only ..

You have said you have dash lights but no crank .. so i would tend to rule that out .

CPS fault .. car will spin over but not fire up .. so thats out .

Ignition lock .. it causes various electrical faults but ive never seen one cause a non start .. so thats out .

The starter needs a 12 volts supply to the solinoid .. this then basically shorts x2 pins inside to send power to the starter .. if a poor connection or a poor solinoid connection (knackered starter basically ) then it will not spin over .

So you have replaced the starter .. unless it was an absoulute fortune then its a refurb unit ..

A refurb is a 15 year old plus starter than someone has taken appart .. replaced what they think is broken with it , bench tested , painted it silver then sold as a refurb ..

No guarentee they have actually fixed the fault with it though .. so a refurb is not always a fix .. it can still be faulty .. in your case .. i think not .

You have a main power lead from the battery to the starter .. its not a one piece lead , there are connection points which can get corroded .. on the gearbox .. think 997 starter lead fault .. its possible .. but i think not .

Immobiliser .. there will be fault codes , it is possible but there needs to be a reason .. if a cab then water ingress .. so check under the passenger seat .. is it wet there .. any water bottles stuck there that might leak ?

From memory the car will spin but not fire up with an immobiliser fault .. but thats from memory so i may be wrong .

Sooo .. what are we left with . the car intermitantly doesnt spin over .. the dash lights stay on .. we will assume the 12 v supply is ok to the solinoid but that is a guess .. i cant see the car after all ..

How about the starter relay ?

Its worth chucking a new one in if only to prove its not this ..

Relay board 2 is behind the rear seats , remove the carpet panel , it pulls upwards in the center .. bend it basically . .. you pull it out then undo the 10 mm nuts and lift up the ally panel.

Relay is position 7 and called start lock on the diagram .

Just my guess anyways .


EDIT ..

Ill just add that any system that has a relay then you use that as the diagnostic point .. 4 pin relay so 30 - 87 will be the switched feed .. if you brigde these wires it will activate the item to be tested .. 85 - 86 are the switched inputs to activate the realy .

30 - 87 .. one is 12 volts and the other the item that needs the power .

85- 86 ..

One will be 12 volts the other an earth when activated .. in this case ignition key in start position . .

If you bridge a starter relay and the car is in gear you WILL be heading off down the road with you in the back of the car .. dont do it .. be safe Very Happy


Second EDIT ..

Starter relay .
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Hans Gruber
Monza


Joined: 24 Mar 2015
Posts: 153
Location: Huddersfield

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everyone for your input, Demort you are a mikon-esque Porsche genius so I’m going to give the relay a try as a first port of call.

It is a new starter but it is a Dansk one not Bosch, maybe that is the problem. Seems I may need to get at it again now my cracked rib has healed (broke it wrestling the old unit off that had welded itself to the bell housing)

I like a tinker and find nothing more therapeutic than taking something apart, cleaning/fixing/improving it and feeling the warm cosy glow of satisfaction it brings. Tools out time I feel, no stop it, you are awful!

I might as well change any earthing straps at the same time as the car is knocking on a bit so probably beyond their prime but when I last looked I struggled to find a lot of info about the locations of these. Any guidance on that front would be greatly appreciated!
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2002 Porsche Carrera 4s
2008 Saab 9-3 Aero ttid - Sold, not arsed
2013 Kawasaki ZX6R - Sold not sorry
2019 Skoda Superb Estate - Bored
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 15956
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DANSK stuff does have a habit of dropping to bits Grin
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Hans Gruber
Monza


Joined: 24 Mar 2015
Posts: 153
Location: Huddersfield

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew I cursed it when someone asked me to recommend a new starter and I said mine had given me no problems....damn you Dansk

Still could be the relay, just checked design911 and they want, get this...£82 plus vat! Is it made of angels tears and unicorn horns in a factory on Pluto or what. I’m a Yorkshireman, that just isn’t happening. The search continues...
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