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squelch
Nürburgring


Joined: 05 Jun 2016
Posts: 439
Location: Bucks


PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bennyy wrote:
Can a N/A car be improved?
A little bit but not by much, I've done it in the past and wasn't impressed TBH.

What car was that on bennyy? Was it a Porsche or similar with a decent capacity? Would be good to see some context to the comment.

I think it's widely understood that forced induction responds the best to remaps, but some N/A cars do respond better to fettling than others (and there's no substitute for cubic inches, as they say).

Anyway, last week I was filling up with Shell's finest when an identical GTS pulled into the forecourt (even down to the same cheesy personal "xx54 GTS" number plate), so inevitably we had a brief chat. He's had it from new and done 50k so far and has had it remapped to 430bhp. Not a vast hike on the standard 408bhp of the GTS but he said it was a "noticeable improvement" and he was really pleased with it. Not an extensive discussion but the fact that he mentioned it in a positive light should be a good sign (I wouldn't expect someone to mention something they've done which they weren't happy with).

DMS seem to advertise in magazines frequently and I think they get good gains from the standard 3.8S. Around 8% power (up to 415 from 385) and 10% torque (up to 338 from 309). I'd want to see plotted torque and power curves though.
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bennyy
Trainee


Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 92
Location: Yorkshire


PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The car i had remapped was a E92 M3. I had a live map put on it after having a Russ fellows exhaust with preliminary cat delete .
The secondary cats were 100 cell race cats. I think it was supposed to have an extra 30 bhp which I doubt TBH.
You would need to improve the cats to even hope to get any more out of the car. I resorted to putting a ESS VT2 supercharger on it.
That helped.
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Mezgerite
Monza


Joined: 02 Nov 2016
Posts: 159



PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can tell you that you will not get anything like an 8% gain.

The biggest gain from this engine comes when it is in a Cayman as it is restricted. I can do it, but it's expensive and your car certainly won't feel transformed.
 
  
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15166
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PC PC duel post
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Last edited by Phil 997 on Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15166
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Gen2 4S originally 385bhp.less a little bit for age on a 10yr old car, it had a sports exhaust with 200cell cats , IPD plenum, and a bmc sports filter and a regal remap and it was measured at 400bhp. So roughly 20bhp for all those bits .
Some would say thats a lot of money for 20bhp. but its not just about the top line number , the car was noticeably sharper in the low mid range and flat spots smoothed out.

It will have a new engine now and an improved induction using a fabspeed twin cone carbon performance exhaust, it also has got forward facing intake scoops to create more of a ram air effect and it will be getting a remap from Chipwizards who are supposed to be the best of the best. therefore I am expecting around the BHP of a stock GTS so 408ish with further improvement in the low mid range.

I have remapped a number of the cars I have owned and accept that the advertised gains are not realistic ,but also Know that noticeable gains are achieved. and it is more about the changes to the power curve and the way the power is delivered than the pub bragging rights of what max BHP it has.
Remaps and the other types of mod I have done are relatively cheap ways to improve the car a bit .

yes some will say the 997.2 is fast enough why do you need to mess and spend money on these things.

Others will consider spending 7to 8K to get 20/25 bhp excessive and not good value for money

But there are also those that get an OE power kit which only adds about the same and costs slightly more and a hell of a lot more if you were to try and retro fit one.

and then theres the like of me , who do it because they can and they enjoy seeing what changes when they personalise bits.

then theres the next level, those that spend 10k on a blower to fit where the airbox currently sits and get an extra 150bhp.

there are those that buy a Turbo and think OMG thats all the power I would ever need and then there are those that take an already very fast car and make it 1000bhp or 1200bhp

Guys play with their cars or leave them stock for their own personal reasons and IMO no one is wrong or right in what they choose to do. but its important they are happy in what they choose to do. Thumb Thumb

Although I have to say that it is impressive to be doing 100plus mph through Germany and a guy with a 1200 bhp turbo comes along side and wheels spins the car at speeds over 100mph as he pulls away from you Grin Grin Grin
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Last edited by Phil 997 on Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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pzero
General
General


Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 5272
Location: London


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
....... therefore I am expecting around the BHP of a stock GTS so 308ish with further improvement in the low mid range.


Perhaps a typo, but a stock 997 GTS should be 408bhp.
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MaxA
Barcelona


Joined: 11 Oct 2015
Posts: 1458
Location: Helsinki


PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I'd say is that you need a proper custom tune by a reputable tuner with about half a day on a (good) dyno, to get the best out of what you have, but to get the best out of a tune, you need to make a couple of supporting mods first. This applies to any NA or forced induction engine and obviously there is less potential with an NA.

I've had a few cars remapped over the years (one of them twice), and I suppose I could have bought faster cars, but I enjoy the journey as well as the drive.
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Lex
Newbie


Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 43
Location: Warwickshire


PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I worked in the engine cal department of a major OEM for a number of years. Not directly calibrating engines, but in the company of those engineers. Emissions regs and the hardware required to meet them governs everything, even exceeding what a marketing team will want to pitch to customers when it can't be done for a sensible price.

As a result and the power and economy an engine can achieve can most of the time be optimised by removing obvious restrictions and getting a good quality map. This map may be less tolerant to change, but here in the UK we have good quality fuel and little variance in altitude to upset things.

My stance has always been to optimise an engine until it feels like its flowing air properly and extracting as much power as can reasonably be expected, without chasing numbers.

Of course, this is just my opinion.
 
  
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15166
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pzero wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:
....... therefore I am expecting around the BHP of a stock GTS so 308ish with further improvement in the low mid range.


Perhaps a typo, but a stock 997 GTS should be 408bhp.


Floor Floor well spotted mate , I have edited the post to read 408 ,I would have been disappointed if it was really 308 I ended up with Grin Grin Thumb
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15166
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaxA wrote:
All I'd say is that you need a proper custom tune by a reputable tuner with about half a day on a (good) dyno, to get the best out of what you have, but to get the best out of a tune, you need to make a couple of supporting mods first. This applies to any NA or forced induction engine and obviously there is less potential with an NA.

I've had a few cars remapped over the years (one of them twice), and I suppose I could have bought faster cars, but I enjoy the journey as well as the drive.


I agree mate the journey is a big part of it for me. Thumb
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Last edited by Phil 997 on Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15166
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lex wrote:
I worked in the engine cal department of a major OEM for a number of years. Not directly calibrating engines, but in the company of those engineers. Emissions regs and the hardware required to meet them governs everything, even exceeding what a marketing team will want to pitch to customers when it can't be done for a sensible price.

As a result and the power and economy an engine can achieve can most of the time be optimised by removing obvious restrictions and getting a good quality map. This map may be less tolerant to change, but here in the UK we have good quality fuel and little variance in altitude to upset things.

My stance has always been to optimise an engine until it feels like its flowing air properly and extracting as much power as can reasonably be expected, without chasing numbers.

Of course, this is just my opinion.


Good post Lex, this is completely my understanding and thinking and as you say we have good fuel and altitude , weather variations are minimal compared to many countries. so we should be able to get fair results in the UK , this is also the reason I only use 99ron vmax fuel. Thumb
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MaxA
Barcelona


Joined: 11 Oct 2015
Posts: 1458
Location: Helsinki


PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lex wrote:
I worked in the engine cal department of a major OEM for a number of years. Not directly calibrating engines, but in the company of those engineers. Emissions regs and the hardware required to meet them governs everything, even exceeding what a marketing team will want to pitch to customers when it can't be done for a sensible price.

As a result and the power and economy an engine can achieve can most of the time be optimised by removing obvious restrictions and getting a good quality map. This map may be less tolerant to change, but here in the UK we have good quality fuel and little variance in altitude to upset things.

My stance has always been to optimise an engine until it feels like its flowing air properly and extracting as much power as can reasonably be expected, without chasing numbers.

Of course, this is just my opinion.


Thanks for this. Although I am not an engineer, I work for a large engine maker, and (keeping it simple) we do occasionally have customers asking for 'more power' (or rather less derating)...

However, the engines are rarely 'standard' and they are usually configured and produced for the very specific user case (in terms of the actual altitude, ambient humidity (and range), ambient temperature (and temperature range), and most importantly the quality of the fuels and the ranges and constituent parts of that fuel quality). So it isn't always straightfoward, especially in terms of hot weather cooling, and where there is variable fuel quality. But we can still reach name plate output anywhere in the world, as that is what the customer bought, and that is what we sell.
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