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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7222
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The principle (I think) is that its best to start and immediately drive off as the car warms up quicker under a bit of load... rich mixture washing the bores for a shorter period, oil warms up and circulates quicker through not only the engine, but transmission.

But, engine revs should be limited, gentle driving etc until the oil is warm.

It interested me that the BMW M cars which had the 'segments' on the rev counter that would gradually extinguish seemed to allow 4k rpm from the get-go. I was always surprised that it was not around 3k.
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alfazagato
Trainee


Joined: 03 Jul 2017
Posts: 79



PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do the latter and have done for years with no problems. All cars with aluminium blocks and wet liners.
 
  
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alfazagato
Trainee


Joined: 03 Jul 2017
Posts: 79



PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry my earlier reply was in response to eubeukes post.
 
  
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 974
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good observations.

We have also found - over the years - that thinking about the choices of owners when the cars we new, say 3 years old and extremely expensive also gives a clue to how they were probably driven (obviously there will always be exceptions). These owners can afford almost any type of fast sports car they fancy - so why do some pick different models to others.

For example we find someone spending the new price on a cabriolet is unlikely to want to thrash it everywhere, but drive it little differently to a saloon car and is often older.

Someone who choses a 3.6 instead of a 3.8 from new - probably isn't so interested in the performance as the guy who bought the 3.8 (and is probably younger).

Of those buying tips or PDK's - the are probably more of them commuting than those buying manuals etc.

But the original tolerances and variations in quality of some internal components also adds a variable outside of owners control (unfortunately).

Oil pressures are relatively low at low engine revs (which is why the Gen 2 has a variable oil pressure control system relating to engine load) and torque (engine loads) are often high when booting from low revs (or in 2nd in a tip) - so sometimes revving up (but not on too much load) is good.

Overall I think owners with a natural mechanic sympathy can usually squeeze more miles out of an engine (on average) than those without and tend also to make sure maintenance is not compromised.

But by most 3rd (4th or more) buyers - they do not know how the first 3 (or more) drove the car but specialists jumping in such a car usually can "feel" how it has been looked after.

A one owner car from one owner might therefore be great yet from another - worn out already.

A multiple owned car can be good if only because it spreads the type of owner and they tend to get a "birthday" each time a new owner buys them either from the new owner after picking it up or by the specialists selling it.

This is why specialists with good reputations tend to sell better quality cars - because they get used to weighing up a "good car" from a "poor one" which someone new to the marque cannot do as well.


Baz
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steve1
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 345


2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

warming the engine is always important, particularly with a TIP, cold oil, low rpm, low fling up bores, and high torque, that OIL coating will break and you get metal to metal.
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7222
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any views on the usefulness of oil analysis Baz?

I imagine that you need a few done over a period to get an idea of 'trend' plus as said above, less miles between oil changes may reveal less useful results.
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Marky911
Magny-Cours


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2625



PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millers assured me that analysis is still worth it on a low mileage sample and that it would definitely still show up anything important.

At the same time I'd expect a series of samples over several services to be the best monitor for an engine but again any glaringly high amounts of copper or Ali would show up with even one analysis.
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17006
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How much is a high amount?
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kas750
Shanghai


Joined: 31 Mar 2013
Posts: 4565
Location: Chorley lancashire

2006 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just drive mine without worry and if it goes bang then so be it. thumbsup
 
  
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911 AU
Silverstone


Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 124
Location: Worcestershire


PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine always ran well, no noises, regular oil changes with nothing obvious in the oil coming out.

I'm not a boy racer, I get my kicks with the TR3a. Drive off sensibly etc.
I had hoped as it was over 110k miles that I was going to in the 'safe' majority.


Just got unlucky, it doesn't run at all currently!

It to picked up by Hartech today...
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7433
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My own personnel view .. and bear in mind Hartech know far more about engines than i do ..

Im of the opinion the engine has had some work done in the past , to have almost no wear on the cam slippers is a bit strange at that milage .

I would expect them to be worn .. not to the point of totally had it but appreciatable wear , and that is dependant on a lot of conditions .

This design btw was only used for a few years untill it switched to vario cam plus .. so a totally different system... which im sure you know .. but for others ..

The slippers are pretty short and so will wear faster than say a chain guide ...

Hence im suprised at almost no wear .

It doesnt really matter anyways , your Mechanic says they are good so thats excellent news.

second thing puzzleing me .. you had a poor idle for many years ? and this was down to this cam solinoid .. no misfire faults over that time period ?

No other symptoms ?

My usual experience with these is either burning out or flagging misfire faults .. to have no fault codes over such a long time is something new for me .. so im just confirming .. poor idle but no other symptoms ?

Im learning basically for the future ... the more i learn the more it helps others Thumb
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Luddite
Nürburgring


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 483
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to read of your need for an engine rebuild 911 AU, hope you will be able to enjoy many happy miles now... After the running in period Question

On the subject of longevity,I would certainly not argue against the thinking that a machines past treatment can determine fundamentals relative to it`s longevity, and in that regard as ever I have a story that may be of interest... or not..?

A number of years back my then local OPC took on Ferrari. At the time I was quite well acquainted the OPC stores guys. There was access to the workshop via the stores counter for staff, and while I was in for parts and chatting with the store-man asking how they were getting on with Ferrari, our conversation was halted as the showroom door opened and one of the salesman entered with a customer in tow. The salesman was met by one of the mechanics who had come through the stores, thus I was able to hear the ensuing conversation.

The salesman invited the customer to explain the problem he was regularly experiencing with his Ferrari to the mechanic, to which he proclaimed.... It rumbles and shudders under acceleration... the mechanic suggested they went on a test drive, the customer then offered the keys to the mechanic who declined and suggested the customer drove. Off they went, and I carried on the conversation with the store-man re Ferrari, but that is yet another story..

A very short time passed, the mechanic returned passing through the stores counter on his way back to the workshop swearing under his breath. The store-man asked what the issue had been with the car. Apparently the customer was in sixth gear, (manual box) driving circa at the limit in a 30MPH limit.....and then put his foot down to overtake a bus... that`s the noise and vibration the customer said with confidence..... !!!

Well now I wonder how much that then new car`s longevity suffered at the hands of that particular mechanically unsympathetic owner.. I suspect it would still be thought of as a very valuable machine today, perhaps more so with a main dealers service history...
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7433
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Floor

Been there .. seen that and told the story !!

The car is not always the problem Very Happy

Opps .. did i say that out loud Embarassed
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17006
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort - I've never understood how the system works with regards to recording faults. If I unplug a coil pack I don't get a fault code or CEL. If I disconnect a solenoid I don't get either. If I disconnect the MAF I do Dont know

Grant (Hartech) ran a full test for me when I was last there and the only thing we could see was bank 1 solenoid not activating and some ABS faults & other non engine related stuff (I think). He suggested the engine sounded good and apart from the solenoid all was well.

The other thing - the car didn't always have this lumpy running. Quite intermittent and if anything, only happened after being left standing 20 minutes or so after already up at temp.

My mechanic (who's business is an agriculture & plant engineer - https://www.facebook.com/G-Collinson-Private-Agricultural-Plant-Engineers-769444006475840/) was telling me he sees many sticky solenoids in equipment he services that only stick when the oil it lives in is very hot. Rest of the time they're fine. Dont know
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7433
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trouble is these are early cars , the fault code read out and how the car interprets faults is not that good im afraid .. its the beginnings of a new system moving away from blink codes .. a flashing led , to a more sophisticated system ... 993 had similar but again very basic .

These are the first of the CAN bus systems as well .

The codes are basic and are intended to lead a mechanic in a certain direction .

If we say a faulty cam solinoid then the cam timing is going to be out .. that will cause rough running and misfires at the extreme ends .. you may not always get a misfire code but in your case we are what .. 2 years ? i would have thought there would be some in that time period .

I know these burn out .. i know the slippers wear and so the timing will be out .. i can only assume yours was within limits so no codes but enough to cause a running / idle issue .

This is unfortunatly what i deal with day to day .. i specialise in these faults and when a car gives us no idication of a problem then its pretty hard to track it down .

I cant throw parts at it , i have no codes to give me an idea and often the reported engine values are all with in specs ..

I have to tell the customer to go away and wait till something breaks im afraid , that or throw parts at it .. not the best way forward but im afraid , we all do what we can with the info we have .

An open ciruit on something should record a fault code as thats a basic check .. but the car doesnt check everything .. an unplugged coil " should " give a fault code .. a defective coil wont .

The newer the car and the better the fault code system ..

AN example .. high lift cam solinoid ( not your car ) ..

996 .. no fault code.

997 .. fault code for swopped lambda sensors or misfires on X 1 bank .

991 .. fault code for high lift solinoid but it has no idea which bank .

Thats the evolution of fault codes in a nut shell im afraid .

There is a drive link for these solinoids on a tester .. i can operate it engine running and listen to the engine , it should make a difference .

Downside it sometimes doesnt work on either bank .. its not a test i can use as i cant confirm it works correctly .. its not something i can trust basically to diagnose it .
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GMG
Nürburgring


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 430
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...engine has been opened and had work in the past...
 
  
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kas750
Shanghai


Joined: 31 Mar 2013
Posts: 4565
Location: Chorley lancashire

2006 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ Mr. Green
 
  
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Marky911
Magny-Cours


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2625



PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
How much is a high amount?


75ppm.

I agree with Demort. Those small cam chain guides start wearing from a very low mileage. If yours have little or no wear then that's not lucky. It's a miracle.... Very Happy

But more likely it's just that someone has been there before you. Wink

To be honest I don't think anyone really doubts the top end on these. Most issues are bottom end and cylinder related aren't they.
Unless they drop a valve or something like that, I don't think they wear badly at all.
Thumb
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7433
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can i just add for anyone reading this and starting to panic ..

Ive never seen these wear through and cause engine problems .. you will get rough running before that and symptoms that will get the car into a garage well before this could happen .
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She's not going until july 2020 though .



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Marky911
Magny-Cours


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2625



PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ Yep that's well worth mentioning.

I am about to update my thread to cover my recent chain guide work and I've written in that that my Indy has never seen an engine failure due to a worn chain guide in the head.

There's one or two stories online but isn't there always.
 
  
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