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Steff
Trainee


Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Posts: 91



PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:49 am    Post subject: oil starvation? Reply with quote

I'm somehow managing to fill my mind with 996 engine worries. Not the usual IMS, bore scoring etc but oil starvation on track.

My 3.4 C2 is completely std and is a road car, I have no aspirations about stripping it, or adding tyres any stickier than the current Michelin PS2's because one of the major appeals of the 996 to me is it's usability on the road.

However, I do a couple of track days a year and having previously sprinted and hill climbed Caterhams, when I'm on track I want to drive it hard without worrying about the engine.

I haven't noticed any issues previously at Anglesey or Oulton park but obviously that doesn't mean issues aren't there

So, on sensible tyres such as the PS2 is oil starvation a genuine concern?

And if it is, is a sump baffle the way to go? if so which one.

Obviously there are plenty of 996's and Boxsters out there on track and racing so what do they do?

thanks
Steff
 
  
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Bluebird911
Nürburgring


Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 421



PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Hartech will be able to help you with this. They race Porsches and I understand they do a kit. Not seen it myself or know anything about it, but heard people talking about it when car was in for a service.
 
  
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Steff
Trainee


Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Posts: 91



PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.

I just gave them a call. They said yes it is a risk if driving hard and ideally you would go with a deep sump and baffle, but with the same amount of oil in it, and an acu sump.

The acu sump would get pretty expensive and I don't really think I would go that far but they do sell a baffled deep sump for around £800 + vat. They said that you can get cheaper deep sumps out there but they are simply deep sumps with little in the way of baffle.
 
  
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crash7
Montreal


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 517



PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fit a low temp thermostat, do a search and a baffled sump.

Most of the baffled sumps are a variation of the Porsche X51 baffle, the OEM Porsche item however does not add a larger sump but uses the standard item with an improved baffle.

I use the FVD Motorsport sump which increases oil capacity by 0.6L and contains an x51 baffle.

Running rubber stickier than PS2 with uprated suspension I have not had any issues with oil surge on track.
 
  
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Steff
Trainee


Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Posts: 91



PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Crash 7, that's good to know.

Already got the low temp stat so I'll look into a sump/baffle then.

It's never going to be a track weapon (for some reason I'm currently obsessed with whether to tradefor a Ginetta G40 for that purpose!), I just want a bit more protection.
 
  
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Y2K
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Posts: 371
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My old C2 3.4 had LTT & FVD sump, I never noticed any oil starvation on track (road tyres), and never thought it had any issues (minimal oil usage, no smoke etc).

However, after I had sold the car, a keen-eyed 996er posted comments on my YouTube video. Watch the video and read the comments section.

https://youtu.be/TLWpdMsBu4E

BTW if you’re getting the FVD sump, check the price from FVD, it was cheaper buying directly from FVD than UK retailers when I bought mine.
_________________
2005 996 GT3 mk2
1999 Integra DC2
 
  
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Steff
Trainee


Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Posts: 91



PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Y2K.

That's an eagle eyed you tube watcher!

Ok sounds like its worth getting a sump/baffle. Was there any issue with ground clearance on the FVD sump? I'm assuming it's not that much lower.

Can you still get the porsche x51 kit? it that worth it or better with one of the others?

Hartech said that their sump and baffle isn't designed for any more oil, where as all the others, including FVD seem to increase oil capacity. Not sure why.
 
  
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Y2K
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Posts: 371
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No issue with ground clearance, from memory the FVD sump is not the lowest part of the car.

Don’t think you can buy X51 sump on its own anymore, but FVD is basically X51 copy.

Not sure if you’ve read this thread by Poppopbangbang? (the chap with the 300+k 3.4 Carrera who tracked his car regularly)

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=103535&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
_________________
2005 996 GT3 mk2
1999 Integra DC2
 
  
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Steff
Trainee


Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Posts: 91



PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh great, I really should get better at searching!

Yep, looks like the FVD is the way to go, for me only using it occasionally on track.

Out of interest, when you sold yours Y2K did you take the FVD sump off? just wondered if that sort of thing would put buyers off due to obvious track use or be seen as a sensible owner taking precautions??

I'm still tempted to get a Ginetta G40 as a more track suited car. I've had a couple of caterhams and used to enjoy thrashing them all day on track without worrying about expensive engine issues..... but then you don't get 911 usability in a Ginetta or Caterham!
 
  
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skinny_monkey
Nürburgring


Joined: 16 Sep 2014
Posts: 390



PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason for increasing sump volume is basically to give a bit more of a buffer from oil pooling in the heads under sustained cornering.

However, actively recovering this oil is quite difficult so easier just too put a bit more in the sump so that when you lose working volume to hang up you still have capacity at the pick up.
 
  
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Y2K
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Posts: 371
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steff wrote:

Out of interest, when you sold yours Y2K did you take the FVD sump off? just wondered if that sort of thing would put buyers off due to obvious track use or be seen as a sensible owner taking precautions??

I'm still tempted to get a Ginetta G40 as a more track suited car. I've had a couple of caterhams and used to enjoy thrashing them all day on track without worrying about expensive engine issues..... but then you don't get 911 usability in a Ginetta or Caterham!


No, the sump stayed with the car, I was upfront to the buyer.

The bolts that came with the FVD fitting kit, my mechanic thought they were too short so he sourced longer ones. Not sure if it’s a bad batch or something but just FYI.

I like Ginetta and Caterham (and Lotus) but I had always wanted a Porsche since I was a kid so Porsche had to be Grin

On another note, I test-drove my friend’s R400 and I couldn’t jel with it. It was my first experience in a Caterham, and my perception was that since the car was so light, I was expecting the controls to be light as well, but I found the car very physical to drive thanks to the unassisted steering and the less than ideal driving position (it had fixed buckets for my taller friend). I need to try a ‘milder’ one like a Roadsport, with suitable seats, to see what the fuss is about. Smile
_________________
2005 996 GT3 mk2
1999 Integra DC2
 
  
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crash7
Montreal


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 517



PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Credit to the cat that spotted your oil pressure from that video! wow!

Interestingly I have just checked my VBox data and the second corner eagle eye speaks of is the highest G corner, 1.5G for me, which was a surprise as from seat I would have said the Palmer Curves.

Perhaps I also see similar oil pressures but have never noticed, either way the car has never shown any issues around Bedford and I have been several times generally getting around in the low 2:50's.

The Porsche X51 baffle is not available separately, you have to buy the X51 oil pan that comes with the X51 baffle, the oil pan is the same as standard.

PCGB championship runs 996's on slicks and several of the front runners only use an X51 style sump, no Accu-sump.
 
  
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EGTE
Imola


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 806



PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can actually see it happen to Hoovie in the first minute of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmBdX4BhtME
 
  
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Steff
Trainee


Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Posts: 91



PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crash7 - thanks, that fact about the PCGB guys gives me confidence. I fully appreciate that a whole host of factors can make your engine go bang at any point but it sounds like using the baffled sump is a sensible precaution so that I can get on and enjoy some more track days.

I have a question about which one but I'll put that on the thread Y2K linked.

Y2K - I guess Caterhams are very different to a lot of cars so you need a few miles to get used to them but particularly on track the lack of weight does make them feel like little else. I did 3 seasons in the lotus 7 club sprint and hillclimb championship and loved every minute.
 
  
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6718
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EGTE wrote:
You can actually see it happen to Hoovie in the first minute of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmBdX4BhtME


Hmm. It did not look a particularly extreme corner (no worse than the M25/M40 interchange Whistling), presumably something else failed. 248k miles with that sort of driving treatment is a bit optimistic...

Did he strip the engine to see what went wrong?

Interesting possibility he raises about the 5w 40 oil being too thin for high engine temp track work.
_________________
"911- the guilt-free supercar"

Current: 2003 C4S Coupe, seal/black

Ex: '02 C4S Coupe, '96 993 Targa, '88 Carrera Sport Coupe
 
  
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Y2K
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Posts: 371
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash7 wrote:
Interestingly I have just checked my VBox data and the second corner eagle eye speaks of is the highest G corner, 1.5G for me, which was a surprise as from seat I would have said the Palmer Curves.

Perhaps I also see similar oil pressures but have never noticed, either way the car has never shown any issues around Bedford and I have been several times generally getting around in the low 2:50's.


I wasn’t as quick, on my second visit I managed high 2:50s before the fun police waving noise boards at me Rolling Eyes

I’ll be there this Monday if you fancy a play.
_________________
2005 996 GT3 mk2
1999 Integra DC2
 
  
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crash7
Montreal


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 517



PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhh the noise Police, ohh what joy!

VBox ideal lap was 2:48 and to be honest I don't think the car has much/anything more in it, too many long straights and not enough grunt, 300 Bhp is somewhat limiting, and I suspect it’s probably closer to 280.

I top out at 127mph on the long straight before braking just after the 150 board, 991 GT3 sees 150 before the board and Mc570 sees 160!

Would be interested to see what a 996 GT3 is clocking, although speedo is to be taken with a pinch of salt.

As for a trackday would love too, however the car is currently getting some winter upgrades that all being well will see the 127 figure improved!!

Last edited by crash7 on Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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EGTE
Imola


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 806



PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
EGTE wrote:
You can actually see it happen to Hoovie in the first minute of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmBdX4BhtME


Hmm. It did not look a particularly extreme corner (no worse than the M25/M40 interchange Whistling), presumably something else failed. 248k miles with that sort of driving treatment is a bit optimistic...

Did he strip the engine to see what went wrong?

Interesting possibility he raises about the 5w 40 oil being too thin for high engine temp track work.


Worse than that; he did a lash-up LS3 V8 swap and then blew that up too! Surprised
 
  
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