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g911omr
Monza


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 222



PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure it has been said before, but anyone buying a 996 will surely have done a bit of due diligence and will be perfectly aware of the potential mechanical pitfalls. You would like to think that the engine, assuming it has been looked after properly, will last beyond 100k. The facts are that most do but some don't.
My C2 has done 55k and to the best of my knowledge has been very well maintained and serviced regardless of mileage. If it goes bang any time soon I'd be proper peed off. However, I know that is a possibility and I knew that when I bought it.
 
  
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James M-S
Hockenheim


Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Posts: 740
Location: Derbyshire

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear this Mike.

I’m sure it will come back in better health than it ever has been.

James

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GMG
Monza


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 200
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...did you look at the pictures Alex? To these eyes they reveal the faults that I listed? Did you see something different? Am I wrong?

I have no interest in being a sycophantic slavishly agreeing with views for the sake of 'fitting in' to a clique...I have an opinion on this subject and I am comfortable with expressing it despite the vilification it oddly attracts?

For what it's worth I love the 911...always have, however , and demonstrably ,the M96 engine is shockingly poorly engineered...
 
  
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deMort
Zolder


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 5533
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not the sort of post i normally reply to .. as you all know ..

Its rare but it can happen .. your 10 year old TV will break at some point .. your 15 year old fridge will break at some point ..

Porsche cars are a lot more expensive though .. should they last for ever with no problem is the question .

The trouble with building a light weight .. fast .. sports car is you are not building like a volvo .. longevity , you are much closer to F1 .

Its always going to be a balenceing act for Any manufacturer to get it right .. add to this Porsche was almost bankrupt at the launch of the 996 .

i dont agree or disagree with the design .. cast iron block would have lasted longer though Smile

Is it common .. not really .. i see no more than what i would class as normally wear and tear which depends a huge amount on how its been driven over the years .. these cars dont fall off a cliff when they get to 100k miles ... ask poppopbangbang !!

What i would say is everyone is entitled to their opinion wether its good or bad .. i answer a post and do just that .. im not going to argue with what anyone else says .. i just make my point .. OP decides what posts they want to go with .

Just my 2 pennys anyways Very Happy
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GMG
Monza


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 200
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...beautiful balanced as always Ian or should I say Boogy Man Dance
 
  
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deMort
Zolder


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 5533
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
...beautiful balanced as always Ian or should I say Boogy Man Dance


Bless you Very Happy
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skinny_monkey
Nürburgring


Joined: 16 Sep 2014
Posts: 390



PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the engines cost 3k to repair no one would really care.
They cost 15k tho, which is difficult to stomach on a 15k car. But its also a big part of the reason they only cost 15k!
You want a more robust engine? Ok. 997.2 for you then. Oh, but it's 40k.

As for the OP's bad luck, who knows what the sequence of events was. However I am fairly confident that the bores, pistons, and crank did not all go independently of each other. More likely one went first and then caused increased stress on the other parts. Sorry to hear it happened. But enjoy the 3.7 Laughing
 
  
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alex yates
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 14476
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
...did you look at the pictures Alex? To these eyes they reveal the faults that I listed? Did you see something different? Am I wrong?



So in your expertise, how scored is that bore......or is it just general 90k wear?

..........and what's to say anything in those photos hasn't happened within the moment of it packing in? If the oil pump failed then I'd expect to see many parts of the engine in a very poor state.
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GMG
Monza


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 200
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...either scenario vindicates my view that these engines have significant 'flaws' that render a very expensive rebuild necessary at intervals that are impossible to mitigate against or predict thereby making them a gamble to buy...

The above is I believe an accurate statement ? And doesn't mean that I am a 'hater'.

Thus my advice to anyone looking to buy one remains the same; ensure that you can afford a rebuild should the worst happen...or buy a rebuilt one thereby removing most of the worry...
 
  
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g911omr
Monza


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 222



PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="GMG"]...either scenario vindicates my view that these engines have significant 'flaws' that render a very expensive rebuild necessary at intervals that are impossible to mitigate against or predict thereby making them a gamble to buy...


Your are right. There is no doubt about that. But a secondhand car of any brand is always going to be a bit of a gamble and a 996 is certainly going to bite you on the butt if things go pear shaped. The answer is fairly simple though. Don't buy one. 2 indies that I know fairly well both told me not to bother, "Don't get one, they are rubbish"
I took no notice so only have myself to blame when it goes tits up.
Maybe I should get rid now?
Anyone looking for a nice 3.4 C2 that for the time being is running well?
 
  
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ballcock
Sepang


Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2882
Location: Dublin

1996 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They’re cheap for a reason as stated above. And even with a Hartech bells and whistles rebuild they’re STILL cheap. Win win.
I had four years of classic G Wagen ownership, with a very good friend swinging the spanner at mates rates, the bills were still horrendous - many multiples of a full on 996 engine rebuild... On a truck that has a name for incredible durability.
Just plan on an engine rebuild and half as much again for other bits and you’re sorted, bonus if the money stays in your wallet.

All IMH but The biggest problem is the 996 has, for the last ten years, been in the price range of those who want a 911 but don’t have anything left to keep it in shape.
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‘98 Ocean blue 996 C2 Tip pressed into daily service.

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Ex. '99 996 C2 manual coupe.
 
  
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GMG
Monza


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 200
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...agree and share this view; keep a £15,000 ish 'chocolate engine fund' and you need worry not...

[/list]
 
  
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Bluebird911
Nürburgring


Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 421



PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike, so sorry to hear your horrendous experience of engine failure and pleased you have shared this with us. It has the makings of a very interesting thread. Has a full fault diagnosis been carried out to ascertain the cause? You are in the best hands for that!!

@GMG I wouldn’t take the comments you are receiving too personally; even though you have been accused of pedalling lies and not being very helpful to the forum members, it is the message of failure that people don’t want to hear. You are in good company though, Baz got flamed when he reported a high number of engines that Hartech have opened up have signs of crankshaft journal wear at 100k miles and Ken has also been torched for some of his cautionary comments. They all have good experienced based information, but people didn’t want to read / believe this about their P&J so attack it and try to disprove it. We are on a 996 forum after all, you are hardly likely to get a good reception or balanced treatment.

Baz’s message was, ‘Guys, if you value your crankshaft, you should consider bearing replacement at 100k miles’ a stitch in time saves 9 etc! But that message wasn’t well received.

I thought @deMort nailed it with his comments which I and I’m sure other member value highly and Mr Corn’s balanced and experienced based comments.

IMS failure or bore scoring occurrence is relatively rare, but when it happens it hurts – it really hurts. That should be remembered. So in conclusion, you have as much right to post and share your experience as anybody, and your experienced based opinions may be considered extreme by some, but others may say that to do nothing, don’t worry, it won’t happen is equally extreme.

You do what you believe to be right!

Just my 2p!

Apologies Mike, your thread has probably been hijacked!!
 
  
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GMG
Monza


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 200
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...thanks bud and given we live in a democracy I am comfortable with speaking my mind and tbh don't really give a toss about the 'feedback' ...

What I know is that Hartech and every specialist I spoke with were rebuilding engines that had ***** themselves, that such occurrences aren't rare, that these failures are beyond the expected wear and tear for older performance cars and nothing can be done to mitigate or predict...

...and anyone stating that 100k miles cars are just run in are deluding themselves! The internals in the majority of opened engines will be significantly worn...my specialist commented on how 'good' my car was at 69k miles but I still required the replacement of everything from the tandem pumps,oil pumps,varicams etc etc ! Oh and he had three more M96 engines to fix!!
 
  
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alex yates
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 14476
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still more robust than the M97 Grin
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cossiemike
Newbie


Joined: 23 Dec 2017
Posts: 23



PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With reference to wear on my engine,bottom end was definately gone,but I did hear it starting to tingle,I know from race experience to stop immediatley but did'nt.That would have saved the crank & rod. Grant said the pistons were savagable.I just went the 3.7 route because you can't have enough torque or power.I am not gentle with any car I have and have a scrap box with destroyed engines from Alfa 16v flat 4's,inline factory race 2 litre twin cam. Cosworth turbo with cracked blocks.Rods through the side in Cooper S. All engines do go bang if you take to the limit. I did have the 996 round Millbrook one day for exercise.The bill for the engine is compareable with the engine I am having built for my Cosworth.I have been told not to take the 996 on track when done and enjoy it as a road car.Will update with progress.Mike.
 
  
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asterix_the_gaul
Suzuka


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.
Quote:
..I am not gentle with any car I have and have a scrap box with destroyed engines..


Surprised this may explain a lot..
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1992 944 S2 Cabriolet, Cobalt Blue/Classic grey -gone!
1995 993 C2 Cabriolet, Midnight Blue/Marble grey -gone!
1999 996 C2 Coupe, Ocean Blue/Graphite grey
2002 E46 M3 Cabriolet, Laguna seca blue/LSB
 
  
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asterix_the_gaul
Suzuka


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a custom hard cut limiter next time?
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1992 944 S2 Cabriolet, Cobalt Blue/Classic grey -gone!
1995 993 C2 Cabriolet, Midnight Blue/Marble grey -gone!
1999 996 C2 Coupe, Ocean Blue/Graphite grey
2002 E46 M3 Cabriolet, Laguna seca blue/LSB
 
  
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coullstar
Barcelona


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1309
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asterix_the_gaul wrote:
Maybe a custom hard cut limiter next time?


That's not the issue, oil starvation is from what I read. Not uncommon with 996 on track.
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asterix_the_gaul
Suzuka


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that too, I was more thinking of the box of miscellaneous broken engines having a common theme

I would hope the 3.7 redesign addresses the oil starvation in long high g corners, I think I read hartech do something to counter that design flaw?
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1995 993 C2 Cabriolet, Midnight Blue/Marble grey -gone!
1999 996 C2 Coupe, Ocean Blue/Graphite grey
2002 E46 M3 Cabriolet, Laguna seca blue/LSB
 
  
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