Welcome to 911UK
The only place for Porsche, 911uk is the definitive enthusiast and resource site for the Porsche 911.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so join up today for full access to the site and benefit from latest member offers.

Porsche Classifieds
Porsche Buyers Guides
Sell Your Porsche on 911uk
Create a Free Classified Advert
Search Ads
Classified Adverts FAQ
Trade Classified Information
Buyer & Seller Fraud Protection
Consumer Rights Act
Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI)
Porsche Car Sourcing
Porsche Cars Wanted
Official Porsche Centre Reviews
Model
Stock
Porsche 911
991 : 2011- 19
997 : 2004- 93
996 : 1997-2005 44
993 : 1993-1998 5
964 : 1989-1993 4
Carrera 3.2 : 1983-1989 0
Carrera SC : 1977-1983 2
930 Turbo : 1975-1989 0
Early 911 : 1964-1977 3
Porsche Other Models
Classic : 1950-1965 0
Boxster : 1997- 14
Cayman : 2005- 17
Cayenne : 2003- 8
Macan : 2014- 0
Panamera : 2009- 1
912-914-924-928-944-968 1
959 - CarreraGT - RaceCar 1
Car Parts For Sale & Wanted
Other Items For Sale & Wanted
Wheels Tyres For Sale & Wanted
Number Plates For Sale Wanted

Porsche Services
Porsche Body Shop Repair
Paint Protection & Wrapping
Porsche Classic Insurance
Porsche Classic Parts
Porsche Classic Restoration
Porsche Design Collection
Porsche Engine Gearbox Rebuild
Porsche Heritage & History
Porsche News
Porsche Picture Gallery
Win a New Porsche 911

Porsche Parts
Body Parts, Body Styling
Brakes, Clearance
Electrical, Exhausts
Engine Cooling, Engine Electrical
Engine Rebuild, Heating Cooling
Interior Incar, Lighting
Rubber Seals, Service Parts
Steering, Suspension
Transmission, Workshop Tools
Early 911, 911 - 930, 928 - 968
964 - 993, 996 - 997, Boxster
Cayman, Cayenne, Panamera

Porsche Model Range
911 [991] 2011-Current
Porsche 911 [991]
911 [997] 2004-Current
Porsche 911 [997]
911 [GT] GT1-GT2-GT3
Porsche 911 [GT]
911 [996] 1997-2005
Porsche 911 [996]
911 [993] 1993-1998
Porsche 911 [993]
911 [RS] RS-RSR
Porsche 911 [RS]
911 [964] 1989-1993
Porsche 911 [964]
911 3.2 1983-1989
Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera
911 SC 1977-1983
Porsche 911 SC
911 [Early] 1964-1977
Porsche 911 [Early]
Boxster & Cayman
Porsche Boxster & Cayman
Cayenne & Panamera
Porsche Cayenne & Panamera

911uk Site Partners

Post new topic   Reply to topic
Author Message
Rob6
Newbie


Joined: 23 Sep 2014
Posts: 19
Location: Tring


PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Sooty exhaust pipes Reply with quote

Have a 2007 997 S
As you look at the back, the 2 left hand pipes have sooty build up, the 2 right hand ones have none.
Any ideas?.
Let me down gently if its serious.
_________________
'07 997 Carrera S 3.6 - Auto
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
alex yates
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 14451
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very serious. Sounds like you have bore score on your right bank. Will need an engine rebuild pushing towards a 5 figure sum.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Loads of info on here about it. Start with this: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=128713
_________________
2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible


 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
MisterCorn
Long Beach


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 6349
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
Very serious. Sounds like you have bore score on your right bank. Will need an engine rebuild pushing towards a 5 figure sum.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Loads of info on here about it. Start with this: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=128713


I am not sure that is letting him down gently, but unfortunately pretty accurate.
I would have gone with, you might be facing a window for upgrade opportunities.
MC
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
alex yates
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 14451
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best to rip the plaster off in one swift go.
_________________
2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible


 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
FZP
Magny-Cours


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 2704
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id taken it a step at a time and go get it checked out with a borescope. But I feel Alex has removed the bandaid off already and this is where your head should be at in terms of potential issues
_________________
997.2 Carrera 2S GT Silver/Cocoa.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Rob6
Newbie


Joined: 23 Sep 2014
Posts: 19
Location: Tring


PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks all - looks like I should get it looked at straight away.

Any ideas why this would happen?
The car has done 99k miles now
I have had it 4 years and been shocked how many times between services i have to top the oil up - was this a sign i should have noticed?
_________________
'07 997 Carrera S 3.6 - Auto
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
spongebob squarepants
Reims


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Manchester and Iraq


PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob6 wrote:
Thanks all - looks like I should get it looked at straight away.

Any ideas why this would happen?
The car has done 99k miles now
I have had it 4 years and been shocked how many times between services i have to top the oil up - was this a sign i should have noticed?


A ticking time bomb (according to the recognised expert in the field) which can happen any time and any mileage......
_________________

991 C2S X51 powerkit PDK in racing yellow, PCCB, PDCC, PSE, Sports design kit, ducktail.
EX 997.2 Carrera 4S PDK
EX 997.2 Carrera S PDK
EX 993 C2 manual in guards red
EX 997 C2 gen 2 PDK
EX 993 Targa
EX 993 Carrera 4 manual
EX 996 3.4 Cabriolet
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
alex yates
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 14451
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably the most common major issue with the gen 1 997. High oil consumption is a sign, hence the sooty tail pipes. Tips are also more common than manuals as the torpue loaded on the engine setting off in 2nd gear is higher than a manual.
_________________
2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible


 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14524
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully the 4 yrs you have had it have been fairly low cost other than the oil usage and hopefully you planning on keeping it another four years . It often discussed that these cars cost between 2k and 2.5k pa to look after some get it in drips and drabs other as you and me get it it the way of fairly low costs for a few years then a big hit eg a rebuild. but assuming you have had relatively low motoring then a 10k rebuld will still keep you below the 2/2.5k ave PA for the 8yrs your planning to have the car.
options open to you assuming it is borescore are

repair the damaged cylinders only probably 4 and 6
replace the whole bank 456 with Hartech liners etc these are the weak ones as they dont get the same level of cooling as the other bank.
replace all 6 and get hartech to bullet proof the engine

the good news is Hartech rebuild engines command a premium on resale and depending on what you paid for the car 4 yrs ago you could end up with some of the rebuild cost back on resale. you also wont have suffered the same depreciation as most other marques and my assumption would be that even with the cost of a rebuild you still wouldnt have lost the same money as if you have brought a BMW or similar for what you paid for the 911 and owned it for 4 years.

also worth considering is spending a little extra and get a Hartech 3.9 rebuild

So its not all just bad news and you do have options depending on budget and what you paid for the car v what its worth as a Hartech rebuild either you can do the maths or if you wish to share the info we can help with the maths .

Thumb Thumb
_________________
911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
jerzybondov
Monza


Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 156



PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a few other issues that can cause sooty pipes - it's not just borescore, so don't fret unduly just yet. Although you should be prepared for the eventuality - the 3.8 997 is the most affected variant (particularly in tiptronic), some needing rebuilds with half the mileage or less yours has made it to!
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
nigel99
Barcelona


Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 1269
Location: Berkshire

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another option is to keep driving it, keep topping it up with oil and washing the tail pipes. It does sound like an engine rebuild will be required but not necessarily immediately so enjoy the car while you're deciding what to do longer term.
_________________
Current: 2009 997.2 C2S
Previous: 2008 Cayman 2.7, 2002 Audi TT, 1999 BMW 318!
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Rob6
Newbie


Joined: 23 Sep 2014
Posts: 19
Location: Tring


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks folks - really appreciated.

I have a couple of questions to the varies posts:
where did the 2/2.5k figure come from - sounds quite high, is this other owners experience as to running costs? You are right about the oil consumption. I usually put in at least 5 litres between annual services, and on occasion I have driven for a while with low levels which made me think I brought this on myself.

Another post mentioned there may be other reasons for the sooty exhaust, but didn't say what they might be?

Also, the car recently passed its MOT. If it was burning oil, and leaving these sooty deposits, would it pass the emissions criteria.
_________________
'07 997 Carrera S 3.6 - Auto
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14524
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob6 wrote:
Thanks folks - really appreciated.

I have a couple of questions to the varies posts:
where did the 2/2.5k figure come from - sounds quite high, is this other owners experience as to running costs? You are right about the oil consumption. I usually put in at least 5 litres between annual services, and on occasion I have driven for a while with low levels which made me think I brought this on myself.

Another post mentioned there may be other reasons for the sooty exhaust, but didn't say what they might be?

Also, the car recently passed its MOT. If it was burning oil, and leaving these sooty deposits, would it pass the emissions criteria.


Hi Rob to answer the question from my post , Yes just as you said it is what seems an ave. pa some will disagree as they have not had a big bill yet and they or the next owner will get it or the previous owner got the bills . but remember these cars are 12/15 yrs old so owners must expect at some point to spend that sort of money. the good thing is these cars dont depreciate like most other marques so the costs end up the same over the years as running a BMW or similar but will the big grin factor that you have driven a 911 for BMW 320 money Grin Grin yes we have all assumed its scoring from your description but the only way to know is to get it scoped and also on a durametric/piwis see if its running wrong or anything else that might cause sooty tips only on one bank. Its unfortunate you didnt read the forum long ago as you would have read things like its important to keep the oil levels right and not hoon it over 3k revs until its fully warmed up fit a LTT etc and the other things that can help reduce risks . but on a positive note you will end up with a better car and not lose much money if it does need to go to Hartech.
Thumb
Heres my example of how things ave out cost wise had a 997.1 for 4.5 years ave cost pa £500 plus one year a/c pipes split engine drop £1000 plus a set of tyres £1000 so that car cost me about £4250 over 4.5 years ,then I brought a 997.2 had it 18 months and in that time the A/C pipes split £1000 the clutch and flywhhel needed replacing £2000 the gearbox needed a rebuild of 2nd and 3rd gears sets and syncros £3000 and a service plus decided to do the coil packs at the same time £500 so 6 yrs of 911 ownership cost so far ave £1792 pa and guess what my bullet proof 997.2 now is at Hartech for a rebuild (cause yet to be confirmed but its either borescore or something broke eg lifter, tappet housing etc and dropped in the engine causing secondry damage to pistons and liners.) I intend to keep the car for another 3 years which will take my 9 yrs of 911 ownership to an ave of £2528 pa. but hopefully what you can see from this example is how the hits come in waves over time. Thumb Thumb to mitigate this cost the 997.1 I sold for 3k more than I paid for it hopefully the 997.2 with a hartech rebuild will sell when the times right for a bit more than I paid for it. this is an assumption but assume I get 3k more than I paid for it like the gen1, so I will have spent over 9 years £22,758 If I had brought a BMW 3 series new I would have lost over 9 years at least £25,000 in depreciation therefore my man maths calculator says I will be finacially better off driving a 911 and will have had at least 500% more fun than if I had brought a BMW 320 or similar euro box Grin Grin Grin Thumb
_________________
911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
spongebob squarepants
Reims


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Manchester and Iraq


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember Phil’s annual average cost is circa 10 grand Grin Grin Grin
_________________

991 C2S X51 powerkit PDK in racing yellow, PCCB, PDCC, PSE, Sports design kit, ducktail.
EX 997.2 Carrera 4S PDK
EX 997.2 Carrera S PDK
EX 993 C2 manual in guards red
EX 997 C2 gen 2 PDK
EX 993 Targa
EX 993 Carrera 4 manual
EX 996 3.4 Cabriolet
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14524
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spongebob squarepants wrote:
Remember Phil’s annual average cost is circa 10 grand Grin Grin Grin


Floor Floor Floor only if you include the chocolate gen2 and discount the ultra reliable gen1 Floor Floor
_________________
911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
deMort
Zolder


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 5508
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ill just go over the facts ..

Sooty tail pipes on one side .

5 Ltrs of oil PER year .. excessive .. 1 ltr is closer to the norm .

No knocking noises .

No misfires and im guessing no fouled spark plugs .

For me its mid range bore score im afraid ..


Now .. ive seen cars with this go for several years .. a Boxster ive seen for 2 years with the same as you but is still not fixed and still going .

Ive also read on here 4k from fine to its had it .

There is no set rule im afraid.

Ive seen excessive bore sore and they smoke like an AOS failure .. its bad .. very bad .

Other faults .. yes but in this case i think not .. over fueling .. leaking injector , low compression .. basically anything that causes an incomplete combustion cycle ..

But with this there will be fault codes .. the car aint stupid .

Oil burning doesnt tend to give fault codes .. we are not talking pints of oil rather a spray or a dribble now and then and the car will adapt to this so fuel trim figures are something you could look at.

Too be honest you need a bore scope check done as that will confirm it one way or the other .

Imho the car wont go bang .. but it wont get any better ..

Its we buy any car or a rebuild im afraid and whilst i agree Hartech are the industry leaders any Porsche specialist can do the work .

resale value and Hartech is a Forum question and not one i concern myself with ... a little blunt but we all rebuild engines .

Edit ..

just to point out Bore score is groves worn into the cylider lining .. a channel that allows oil to bypass the piston rings and end up getting burnt along with the normal running ... drag your finger nails over a bar of soap .. same thing .
_________________
.

My Daughter's Crowdfunding page Here

Mechanic

7pm - 9pm
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Rob6
Newbie


Joined: 23 Sep 2014
Posts: 19
Location: Tring


PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the advice folks and taking the time to post.

I love the car and will keep it forever, so will definately book the bore scope.

Silly question - How are the cylinders numbered? I read about No.6 wearing first, but I dont know which one that is?

Also - if there is some scoring, but i am not experiencing any reduction in performance, just the pain of keep topping up the oil, will the problem definately get worse and possibly cause more damage?

Thanks
_________________
'07 997 Carrera S 3.6 - Auto
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
deMort
Zolder


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 5508
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Face the car from the rear .. you are looking at the crank pully or drive belt end ..

The cyl numbers are 1,2 3 left side and 4,5,6 right side ..

No1 is the closest to you left side .. number 4 is the closest to you right side .

All Porsche cars are numbered this way .


Oil can bypass the piston rings causeing smoke due to scoreing .

The damage is already done but will get worse .. the really bad stage is when it starts knocking as thats a worn piston slapping the bore .

Basically though if its scored the damage is already done , you need a liner and a piston .. it will get worse but your pretty much the same .. you will still need those items .

Ive never seen one go past the loud knocking stage so cant comment if you keep driving it after that though .
_________________
.

My Daughter's Crowdfunding page Here

Mechanic

7pm - 9pm
 



cyls.gif
 Description:
 Filesize:  50.61 KB
 Viewed:  823 Time(s)

cyls.gif


  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Frenchmeister
Suzuka


Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 1243
Location: Beautiful Cumbria.

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to point out the exhaust outlet for the right bank is on the left and obviously vice versa.
_________________
997 Carrera 2S 54 Arctic Silver
944 Turbo S 88 Solid Black
BMW X3 2.0D M Sport 06 Silver Grey
BMW E46 330i touring M Sport 05 Imola Red 2
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
   
Rob6
Newbie


Joined: 23 Sep 2014
Posts: 19
Location: Tring


PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for the helpful replies.

Another quick question - Is the Oil presure gauge any kind of indication of engine performance? Only I read in the manual that it should sit around 3.5 Bar at 5000 RPM, but i use mine every day and rarely see it come away from the max - 5 Bar. Which sort of gave me some confidence that I wasnt losing any compression pressure through any bore scores. Or is the gauge too crude to pick this up?
_________________
'07 997 Carrera S 3.6 - Auto
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   All times are GMT - 12 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum