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GMG
Monza


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 202
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...oh the irony Alex; you are beyond hope...I give up...

So...in the face of your apparently limitless supply of 'tinted rose' I know believe that these engines will last forever and never ever experience a failure of any kind....

Really

frustrated
 
  
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alex yates
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 14478
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

......and now you're twisting mine.
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stewhp
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 264
Location: Essex


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
...so at 90k most engines are seriously in need of a rebuild and are not 'nicely run in' ... they might very well be running ok, however...

...anyone going to state that Baz is talking rubbish?


It’s very easy to paraphrase and miss out the other important comments to twist what someone says into your own twisted reality.

I know that the M96 has some serious issues and believe me I don’t wear rose tinted glasses. I am an engineer to trade, have worked on engines all my adult life of various sizes up to about 60,000 BHP. If I took your attitude every time I was faced with an engine failure I would have packed it in years ago.

High performance engines wear and the fact that the crank bearings may be worn out at 90k should be no surprise. But Baz also stated that many engines last a lot longer. There are a lot of elements in the equation.

If I had owned my car from new I would know it’s total history, how it has been driven, if it had been thrashed, how it was serviced etc etc etc. All factors that dictate how the internals may wear.

Nobody can dictate what will happen to any particular engine or how long it will last before it needs a rebuild or fails completely. Certain figures can only be quoted as a rule of thumb so to speak but are not hard and fast.

For example we had a new turbocharger fitted to a 4000kw generator 4 weeks ago. The bearings collapsed on Thursday without any warning. That’s engineering. Probably caused by a blockage in the lib oil line not a serious design issue.

So Porsche engines fail from time to time. Yes they do I accept that but at the same time I don’t lie awake at night worrying about it.



Very Happy Very Happy
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6721
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What sort of engines do you work on Stewhp? 60,000HP??

Useless
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Robert SausageTrousers
Silverstone


Joined: 02 Apr 2018
Posts: 122



PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My feeling is that GMG's problem is he's comparing these motors with everyday runaround's? A 911 is not a Ford Mondeo, expecting a high performance sports car to give similar reliability/longevity to a family hatchback is unrealistic. When buying a high end car it's only reasonable to expect high end maintenance. Schitt happens.

When compared to Ferrari/TVR/Lamborghini/Aston etc etc they're actually very reliable and cheap to maintain.
 
  
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alex yates
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 14478
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
What sort of engines do you work on Stewhp? 60,000HP??

Useless


Grin


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stewhp
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 264
Location: Essex


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
What sort of engines do you work on Stewhp? 60,000HP??

Useless


I’ve worked on lots as I work at sea. Currently working on LNG ( liquefied natural gas) carriers. But current main engines are only 16,000 BHP but we have two of them, plus 4 x 4000Kw generators for running our reliquefaction plant and general power needs.

The larger engines were when I was working on container ships.
12 cylinder straight, 105cm bore, triple turbo, 60,000 BHP at 82rpm.
Great big effin stone crushers and lovely to hear the turbo’s spin up when accelerating.

Sorry no pics but look up Sulzer or MAN B&W marine engines and you will get the picture. Engines are as big as houses. Very Happy
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GMG
Monza


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 202
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this forum or rather do some of its members live in a parallel universe?

...one where those whose sensibilities I appear to destabilise so easily will pose conflicting and self defeating arguments...in some vain attempt to make me look stupid...

....suggesting (despite what Hartechs experience reveals?) that these engines are nicely run in at 100k miles and at the same time when it is pointed out that such a statement is demonstrably bollocks ....resort to suggesting that these are high performance engines thus one can't possibly or reasonably expect them to be reliable at higher mileage...

It strikes me that unless one is prepared to simply agree with whatever the more senior members write then villification is the outcome...

I find this abit sad tbh or rather I find the the authors of such hostility abit sad...

Baz appears to promote similar sentiments however no one challenges his views?
 
  
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crash7
Montreal


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 518



PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG, take a day off, nobodies interested in joining your hate filled pilgrimage against Porsche & the M96.

You got burned, your upset, we get it, but sh*t happens, move on!
 
  
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MisterCorn
Long Beach


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 6363
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you will find that when Baz has talked about doing pre-emptive rebuilds previously, some people have expressed the view that it simply isn't required.

Big ends are a VERY common thing to change on high performance BMW engines, I did them myself on my S50B32, also done routinely on the S54B32 and increasingly on the later V8 and V10 engines. People moan about that too, but at least it is a lot easier and can be done in-situ for a couple of hundred quid.

MC
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 14703
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:


.......I don't care what others think of my views ........



You shouldn't get upset then. Judge
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ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
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alex yates
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 14478
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I take it you've never heard people use the term "barely run in" on cars that are pushing a 6 figure mileage? Dont know It's a very common (joke) phrase within the motor world.

But lets be honest here - quite a number of these M96 engines blew up before hitting 10k miles due to design flaws causing them D-chunking, exploding IMS bearings, bore scoring & even cam chains snapping. There's also quite a few out there pushing well over 200k without even being opened up, the odd one even passing 300k. So does this mean they're rubbish and explode before 10k or does it mean they can be a fantastic engine, hitting 6 figure mileages even after being ragged all over Europe?

So to state the M96 engine is rubbish simply isn't true. Some fail, some don't, just like any other engine.

All this huff n puff and you still aren't capable of supplying the information I requested from you for the ims data collection. You'd think you'd be straight in there to increase the % of failures. Scratch Chin
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segart
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 28 Jan 2015
Posts: 347
Location: Jersey - Britains South Sea Isle


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some may not think it very relevant but when someone has a very unfortunate and expensive failure and rebuild, it should be set against the experience and costs of others, and the whole costs should be seen in the round. I have just exited 4 years of 2003 c4s ownership during which i have covered 20k miles. Total servicing, repairs and upgrades cost 4850 pounds. I sold the car for 4000 pound more than it cost. Total cost of ownership, b@gger all! Would i rather have run a ford focus or similar??? Er dont think so!
Rick
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DucatiRob
Barcelona


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1403
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
Does this forum or rather do some of its members live in a parallel universe?

...one where those whose sensibilities I appear to destabilise so easily will pose conflicting and self defeating arguments...in some vain attempt to make me look stupid...


Lots of different views and opinions on this forum, not everybody is going to agree with you all of the time and life is too short to get upset about it!

My engine suffered bore scoring 6 months after I bought it, I think I was unlucky, maybe one of the 5%, yes I was a bit upset at the time but nothing like a Hartech rebuild to cheer you up Very Happy Owning any car like a 911 will have it's risks, but not all will be worth what you pay for it 3 years later, which for me is all the justification and comfort I need Thumb .. and if it's worth a bit more because it has a Hartech rebuild, even better!

bye Very Happy
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Chris_in_the_UK
Estoril


Joined: 19 Mar 2014
Posts: 3509
Location: Harrogate


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
Does this forum or rather do some of its members live in a parallel universe?


No, most are realists.

Some engines go well into 3 figures with no issues, others not.

Personal perspective comes into play as well - I come from the 'if it ain't broke' camp and will leave well alone until it is, regular services etc.

Not sure why you are having a go at Hartech particularly?.
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Robert SausageTrousers
Silverstone


Joined: 02 Apr 2018
Posts: 122



PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:


....suggesting (despite what Hartechs experience reveals?) that these engines are nicely run in at 100k miles and at the same time when it is pointed out that such a statement is demonstrably bollocks ....resort to suggesting that these are high performance engines thus one can't possibly or reasonably expect them to be reliable at higher mileage...



Erm, you're taking quotes from various people with differing opinions and hashing them together there! I said that you can't expect a high performance engine to give the same reliability as a run of the mill engine, I have NEVER said that they're 'just run in at 100k', or anything of the sort?
 
  
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GMG
Monza


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 202
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...there is no finance on the car and the rebuilt was paid with from my bank account thus whilst being inconvenienced by the failure this didn't impact my day to day existence...since I threw my toys out of the pram largely out of frustration for the crappie engineering I have had front and rear bumper PUs and about to upgrade the exhaust and refurbish the wheels so very much in love with it again...

My point has only ever been that these cars, rather their chocolate engines, have the capability to ruin you if you have limited financial means...not sure this is terribly controversial?

So just to be clear because I don't want the haters to worry unduly about my emotional state...I love Porsches , especially mine, Hartech are ace and I am over my engine failure...
 
  
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tom_nieto
Monza


Joined: 08 Jan 2017
Posts: 197



PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeez, I thought after trading my K series engined MGTF that I’d finished reading this sort of argument on the internet! If it was so bad why did Lotus use it in the Elise, it’s only a “small fraction” that suffer with HGF... even when my oil pump failed at high speed and it spat a con rod out through the side of the engine block, the recovery bloke said “oh yeah, that’s definitely HGF, they all suffer with that”.

Perhaps I should have bought a TVR... at least everyone knows they’re engineered with part cheese, part chocolate engines.
 
  
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alex yates
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 14478
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:


My point has only ever been that these cars, rather their chocolate engines, have the capability to ruin you if you have limited financial means...not sure this is terribly controversial?


Not controversial, but that statement applies to every single car with an internal combustion engine. I've owned 2 BMWs and both those needed engine work in my ownership. One costing in to a 4 figure number just to replace the upper sump gasket and it was a very common problem with these engines.
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resigner
Suzuka


Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 1154



PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My car history, and I'm 45, so this is going back to the start when I passed my test at 17 in about 1990:

1984 Mini Mayfair, no problems (wrote it off sliding sideways into a signpost, bent the roofline!)
1990 Metro 1.1C, also no problems, great little car.
1996 Renault Clio 16v, great car, handled brilliantly, but had serious problems with multiple fuel leaks, fuel hose coming off completely, oil leaks, buzzing noise from some badly fitted external trim, loved it, hated the problems, gave it back as "unfit for purpose"
1997 Rover 214 as a company car, boring, but solid.
1999 MGF VVC, Head Gasket Failure, bonkers servicing bills, fun and would have another as a bit of fun to throw around. But, awful engineering. Still....
2002 MG TF160. Yup, Head Gasket Failure, also some crazy servicing costs £1300 once, just mad. So, yes, problems again
2005 MG TF160, yup, you guessed it, head gasket failure. It was bought in a Rover MG garage about to go bust when Rover collapsed. This sums up Rover, 9 months old, a wheel hub started disintegrating (yes really!).
2007 Honda S2000. OMG what a car, no problems at all except the CV joints need replacing as the lurch from the Vtec kicking in creates some play in them and wheel hub. Known problem, pretty much the only one when I had it. Otherwise bulletproof. Still miss it, will get another one some day. Kept it for 8 years. Then I bought:

2007 Carrera 2S Cabrio. Went in eyes wide open. Wanted 2006 onwards to avoid IMS problems. It was under OPC warranty, so didn't worry about bore score, and it was fine anyway. Stunning car, still got it, almost certainly won't ever sell it, it's my daily driver, I work at home, it has 78k miles now 3.5 years after I bought it. It had a new clutch when I bought it paid for by the dealer (was due one), its had new discs and pads. It had coil packs under OPC warranty. It had a new oil seperator about 6 months ago. That's basically it. It uses a little bit of oil, well within limits, doesn't worry me, it is a high performance car and I do drive properly. So, I know Bore Score can be a problem, but mitigate against it. Warm it up properly before going for it and so on.

So, the point is, lots of cars have awful problems. Wife had a 2007 BMW 330D which was just going wrong all over the place when we got rid.

The problems with 997.1's are well documented. IMS is a well known issue, note I mitigated against it. I note you didn't GMG. You have yourself to blame. No, Porsche shouldn't of built an engine with those problems, but real world testing can always throw up problems Alpha and Beta testing won't. Everyone suffers from it. All you can do is mitigate against it.

As a result, we drive our 997.1's well aware of the problems, and aware we decided to drive a supercar which can go wrong. I don't let it bother me, I just check the oil and drive it properly and enjoy it.

I you can't cope with that, buy something else, like a Mondeo......
 
  
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