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Chris_in_the_UK
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any updates Phil?
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
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Joined: 05 Dec 2015
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Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris_in_the_UK wrote:
Any updates Phil?


Hi Chris, They have started rebuilding and have called me about a few ancillary engine items that should be considered as they are showing signs of wear etc lots of hoses , tandem pump (no surprise there lol) the high pressure pump had a fault code before they stripped it so I have agreed to those items plus a few more .So the car really should be good for another 10 years as its basically a new engine and with the rebuilt gearbox clutch flywheel and coolant pipes all changed this year ,plus the addition of the cargraphic 200 cell cats and headers to complete the cargraphic exhaust set up ,I hopefully will have a couple of years of low running costs and big grins. Its surprising how quickly after the initial shock of the cost of a rebuild you get your head around it and see all the benefits of a newly rebuilt engine etc.I guess helped by the fact that I had 4.5 years of very low running costs (mods aside) with my gen 1 and intention to stay with the car for at least another 3 or 4 years as my confidence in the marque is very high and do realise that the clutch/flywheel do wear and need replacing the coolant pipes also needed doing on the gen1 and is not unusual on a nearly 10 yr old car the engine was not a design fault and down to a cheap aftermarket part used by the previous owner leaving just the normally very reliable gearbox as being a little unusual a failure but certainly not unheard of . Thumb Thumb
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mikeluke
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M
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bazhart
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the basis that we just tell it how it is (and as professionally as we possibly can), we are now beginning to see a couple of patterns about these Gen 2 piston scoring incidents.

You may remember that ALUSIL was used on the 924S, 944 and 968 models but had to be used in conjunction with a hard iron coated pistons (Ferrostan) that then often lasted for over 250K and was about 0.013mm (or half a thou) thick .

To get away from the hard silicon particles being distributed all over the Alusil block (making it expensive to machine) Porsche introduced LOKASIL (short for Local Silicon) in which the hard silicon particles only existed near the cylinder sliding surface (making the rest of the cylinder block quicker and therefore cheaper to produce) and while they were built in conjunction with the same hard iron plated piston surface as before – they didn’t suffer bore scoring (2.5 Boxster to 3.4 litre 996) – only “D” chunking when the bores were increased in diameter and the wall thicknesses reduced.

Then we understand the process of plating hard iron was outlawed in Europe and replaced with softer plastic piston coatings (Ferroprint) that could not resist the occasional piece of silicon breaking free from the cylinder bore - digging into the piston surface and rubbing up and down the cylinder wall (breaking more particles lose) and eventually scoring bores.

Because with Alusil - the silicon emerges out of solution in Aluminium (when it is over 13% of the total mix) it is evenly distributed and securely bonded and although some lose particles do break free – they only do so after a long period of time and use (and then in small numbers and sizes). Alusil therefore provides a better sliding surface than Lokasil proved to be (in which uneven larger silicon distribution and less secure bonding allowed more silicon particles to come lose earlier) but makes a more expensive block to machine but a much stiffer and stronger one.

You may also have seen that we originally tested numerous different piston coatings (to try and find one good enough to last in Lokasil) and this included a new electroplated metallic coating by Mahle Motorsport (Ferrotec which we understand had stainless steel particles plated up to 2 microns thick – 0.02mm or 8 tenths of a thou thick) – that while much better than Plastic still didn’t last as long as the original ferrous coated pistons did in Lokasil. Meanwhile some specialist piston manufacturers announced that the plastic coatings they use for Nikasil and ferrous liners would not work in Alusil or Lokasil.

Fortunately the more expensive electroplated Nikasil surface we have always use exhibits no such problem and can even run perfectly without any piston coating – so neither we (nor all the post early air cooled 911’s, Gen 1 GT3 and turbos that also used Nikasil) experience bore scoring.
Faced with this problem Porsche returned to using Alusil in the new Gen 2 models but we think using the newer Ferrotec piston surface (we had already tested) that we thought might not be as hard as the original ferrous Ferrostan coating but might just be good enough to run reliably in the more long lasting Alusil blocks. Believing however that the less hard piston surface might still eventually wear off and cause a smaller bore scoring problem - and with time to develop a solution (and despite flack for daring to mention it) - we created typical Hartech Aerospace Alloy Nikasil Plated replacement liners for the Gen 2 engines (at our cost and risk) and embarked on a test program – just in case it became needed one day and meanwhile built a 4.0 litre version to fit in with our oversized engine replacement program.

The only bore scoring problem brought to our attention then was 5 engines where some cylinders in had suffered slightly from age related stress relieving and had shrunk inwards at the bottom of the cylinders (in the direction of piston thrust) reducing the piston clearance to almost zero and promoting full piston seizing on both sides. Obviously this was most likely to occur if the piston expanded quicker than the cylinder and therefore on cold days with spirited driving too soon after start-up. However we were concerned when stories of Gen 2 bore scoring started to emerge in Countries with warmer climates – wondering if there was a second failure mode to consider.

We have recently bought an engine (unfortunately no record of mileage or history) that had bore scoring and on inspecting of the as yet un-scored pistons, we found visually that the machining grooves usually in the surface (to retain oil) appeared to have worn off and become smooth while the colour had also changed in those areas and some typical scoring marks had emerged similar to Lokasil run pistons where silicon particles had grooved the surface (will try and post some photos soon).

On measuring these pistons the visually worn areas were about 0.05mm (or 2 thou) smaller than a standard piston (or 0.025mm or 1 thou thick radially) - the same thickness we understand the piston plating is – confirming the accepted view that Alusil requires a hard coated piston and showing that there is clearly a problem if the plating eventually wears off similar to the old Lokasil Gen 1 bore scoring (and extremely high mileage or highly tuned 944’s and 968’s).

I will try and take another picture and post soon to show this clearly revealing the machining lines that are worn off where the shiny area is and the torn area typical of Gen 1 Lokasil bore scoring.

Our conclusion from this is that there may be 2 failure modes (both rare) but that as time goes by and mileages increase – those engines that have been driven hard (and why not!) for most of their life (so that the piston loads are higher and piston surface wear rates accelerated) may eventually reach a mileage at which they wear away the new type of piston coating and score bores as before.

We don’t know how many this may affect nor how high a mileage this engine has covered and assume that cars driven like the majority - will last a very long and perfectly acceptable time and be problem free. But as age ramps mileages up and some owners apply more aggressive driving styles we expect that it will eventually become a necessity to repair them for bore scoring in very small numbers.

Before all the hysterics about scare mongering etc please understand this is an information source and that we are just providing the evidence we have accumulated, our interpretation of it and in so doing – inviting more evidence to be posted from which we may all get a better understanding of the situation.


Baz
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bazhart
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

picture showing marks.
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bazhart
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry struggling to post second picture
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bazhart
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally managed to post the picture that those interested will find familiar with previous pictures posted of Gen 1 bore scoring. This cylinder had not yet scored so this caught the piston at the stage when it soon would have done.


Baz
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Phil 997
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Joined: 05 Dec 2015
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2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another very informative post thanks Baz Thumb
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Porkaholic
Monza


Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 200
Location: Cornwall


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big thanks of relief to Mr Baz for clarifying in impressive detail but simple enough for people like me to understand Question
I'll use this information to continue to drive my 997.2 with a degree of mechanical sympathy namely warming up, not racing a cold engine, annual oil and filter changes. And while it is still relatively low on mileage sleep at night
knowing that on law of averages bore scoring could well prove to be a non event but be aware that anything is possible, no guarantees. I got away with it for 60,000 plus miles on my 997.1 so I'm reasonably optimistic with my low miler 997.2. Thumb whatever happens still cheaper than running an Aston or Lambo!
Now I've got a manual box on my 4S do I need to worry about this Phil?
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medmick
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
medmick wrote:
Phil, were those Chinese parts put in by the Porsche indie that you bought the car from?


It would seem so Mick , but at who's request I dont know, and I am sure they would never have anticipated what would happen mate . So I can't really blame anyone for being tight with the exhaust budget Thumb


Trouble is, i get my 911 serviced there!
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Phil 997
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Porkaholic wrote:
Big thanks of relief to Mr Baz for clarifying in impressive detail but simple enough for people like me to understand Question
I'll use this information to continue to drive my 997.2 with a degree of mechanical sympathy namely warming up, not racing a cold engine, annual oil and filter changes. And while it is still relatively low on mileage sleep at night
knowing that on law of averages bore scoring could well prove to be a non event but be aware that anything is possible, no guarantees. I got away with it for 60,000 plus miles on my 997.1 so I'm reasonably optimistic with my low miler 997.2. Thumb whatever happens still cheaper than running an Aston or Lambo!
Now I've got a manual box on my 4S do I need to worry about this Phil?


Everyone I have spoken to says the Porsche manual box is a solid reliable lump and I just got unlucky, So I really dont think you have anything to worry about its one of those rare things that can happen to any car . Thumb
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Phil 997
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2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

medmick wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:
medmick wrote:
Phil, were those Chinese parts put in by the Porsche indie that you bought the car from?


It would seem so Mick , but at who's request I dont know, and I am sure they would never have anticipated what would happen mate . So I can't really blame anyone for being tight with the exhaust budget Thumb


Trouble is, i get my 911 serviced there!


And so did I mate for many years until James started out on his own doing mobile Porsche services and stuff. I have no reason to think its their fault or blame them, its just an in hindsight mistake for using unbranded cheap aftermarket parts from the Far East , eventually we will learn in the UK to buy things and buy them once, but to do that we need to stop buying Chinese goods.
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bazhart
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I just add (without invoking another tiresome response about oils) that I know that the silicon particles remain well bedded in (with Alusil) until the oil basically washes back the aluminium substrate after which some gradually become lose.

IMHO using a thicker oil as the mileage increases helps create a slightly thicker space between the piston and the cylinder bore under load that in turn helps the silicon to escape before damaging the pistons.

Also we have not yet seen piston coating wear or bore scoring on the 3.6 only 3,8’s.

Once a piston is properly scored it is difficult to measure or analyse the wear so it may be some time before we get a clearer picture of what’s going on.

Baz
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MattyR
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Location: Somewhere Nr Tunbridge Wells, Kent


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty good news from Hartech for the Gen 2 chaps then. Treat your 911 with care and it will look after you is the mantra! Enjoy all Thumb
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Alfaian
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
medmick wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:
medmick wrote:
Phil, were those Chinese parts put in by the Porsche indie that you bought the car from?


It would seem so Mick , but at who's request I dont know, and I am sure they would never have anticipated what would happen mate . So I can't really blame anyone for being tight with the exhaust budget Thumb


Trouble is, i get my 911 serviced there!


And so did I mate for many years until James started out on his own doing mobile Porsche services and stuff. I have no reason to think its their fault or blame them, its just an in hindsight mistake for using unbranded cheap aftermarket parts from the Far East , eventually we will learn in the UK to buy things and buy them once, but to do that we need to stop buying Chinese goods.


Hi phil. Did you get the engine tetracleaned at all ?

I know you had it done on the gen 1 . I believe they are prone to destroying cats ? Meow Very Happy
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Phil 997
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2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alfaian wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:
medmick wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:
medmick wrote:
Phil, were those Chinese parts put in by the Porsche indie that you bought the car from?


It would seem so Mick , but at who's request I dont know, and I am sure they would never have anticipated what would happen mate . So I can't really blame anyone for being tight with the exhaust budget Thumb


Trouble is, i get my 911 serviced there!


And so did I mate for many years until James started out on his own doing mobile Porsche services and stuff. I have no reason to think its their fault or blame them, its just an in hindsight mistake for using unbranded cheap aftermarket parts from the Far East , eventually we will learn in the UK to buy things and buy them once, but to do that we need to stop buying Chinese goods.


Hi phil. Did you get the engine tetracleaned at all ?

I know you had it done on the gen 1 . I believe they are prone to destroying cats ? Meow Very Happy


Iain, I didn't have either tetra cleaned as they use harsh chemicals that as you say have a habit of causing internal corrosion to an engine , I used a water only based hydroclean that was done on both cars by Topgear who are exhaust manufacturers and told me the issues with the systems that use chemicals . So pretty sure its not that ,but an interesting thought for anyone that has used a chemical based engine decoke on their car. Thumb


https://www.topgear.co.uk/hydroflow
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Alfaian
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi phil, it's interesting because a good friend of mine owns his own workshop ( local garage) and has a good rep around these parts. He's known as a "bit expensive " too but, he's always packed with work. Ranging from run of the mill to Audi rs engine work etc and he's done some minor work on my 911.

Anyway, he's had a few cars in that have had these cleaning machines put on and almost every issue is burnt valve/s . They ignite unburnt carbon around the valves and top of the piston causing it to overheat. So he says.

If it can burn valves out then surely it could kill the cats Hand Very Happy
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deMort
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bazhart wrote:


Before all the hysterics about scare mongering etc please understand this is an information source and that we are just providing the evidence we have accumulated, our interpretation of it and in so doing – inviting more evidence to be posted from which we may all get a better understanding of the situation.


Baz


Im happy to admit ive learnt a lot from reading your posts and i would just like to add that whilst ive herd of 1 case of an engine problem with these cars ( outside of here ) ive never actually seen one so this is pretty dam rare .
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Phil 997
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2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alfaian wrote:
Hi phil, it's interesting because a good friend of mine owns his own workshop ( local garage) and has a good rep around these parts. He's known as a "bit expensive " too but, he's always packed with work. Ranging from run of the mill to Audi rs engine work etc and he's done some minor work on my 911.

Anyway, he's had a few cars in that have had these cleaning machines put on and almost every issue is burnt valve/s . They ignite unburnt carbon around the valves and top of the piston causing it to overheat. So he says.

If it can burn valves out then surely it could kill the cats Hand Very Happy


Its a very interesting theory mate and not one I can confidently comment on, but it is worth consideration as a potential risk to any cars. but it needs someone with lots more knowledge than me about them and what they may or mayn't do to an engine. Dont know Question
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bazhart
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks DEMORT - Of course we receive a very distorted view of typical engine problem numbers - because so many come to us with them - but the benefit of that is that we can analyse the failures on a lot of failed engines, draw technical conclusions from them and invest in R & D to understand them early on when the numbers help separate one off's from repeated issues. This is an essential part in developing better outcomes - because your own excellent knowlege base comes partly from your own experiences and you will know that it is much easier to give good advice and it is so much easier to find technical answers when you know the cause and what to avoid.


So our advice about avoiding too fast a sprited drive from cold and changing to thicker oils as mileages increase is well based on a lot of experience and evidential observations and measurements.


I thought that the Gen 2 pistons we found that had worn off the new plating (that we had already experienced and found less hard than the older plating) and that then scored bores when the plating thickness had worn off (so the piston was an alloy face running in Alusil - which we know will score) was a good technical conclusion.


I think it means that the Gen 2 engines will eventually start to fail when they have been in the hands of a number of impatient aggressive drivers (possibly always running on recomended oil grades from new) at very much higher mileages than the Gen 1's and that many will never fail (as most owners drive very modestly).

All good news - except one day in the distant future for those unfortunate owners that start to experience failures when I hope it is nice to know that there is a solution that has been under test for several years and might be a better fix than simply replacing failed with the same solution and in the process may even improve performance.


It took a number of years before the independent sector experienced the Gen 1 IMS bearing, "D" chunk and bore score failures - but we were ready when it happened and it will take even longer for these Gen 2 engines to fail in numbers that get general attention - and when they do we will once again be in a good position to offer an alternative.


Meanwhile we hope our advice will extend that time for owners of a very good and reliable sports car indeed.

Baz
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