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brownspeed
Monza


Joined: 09 Jun 2016
Posts: 179
Location: Gods favourite city-Manchester


PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ay up lad. Glad you're reunited with the car. Please enjoy the complimentary black pudding I left on your dash!
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2004 997.1 C2S (Hartech rebuilt)
2002 TVR Tamora 3.6
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spongebob squarepants
Zolder


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 5090
Location: Manchester and Iraq


PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you say engine mounts! Surprised Is this a good idea nooo It’s almost perfect........
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991 C2S PDK with X51 430 powerkit in racing yellow, PCCB, PDCC, PSE, Carrera S alloys, Sports design kit and ducktail.
“Herman yellow, the last of the naturally aspirated”

EX 997.2 Carrera 4S PDK
EX 997.2 Carrera S PDK
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15189
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spongebob squarepants wrote:
Did you say engine mounts! Surprised Is this a good idea nooo It’s almost perfect........


Well I will they them its only 15mins to take them back off if its a bit too hard . I did have them on the gen1 so was going to try them on the gen2 but I am not convinced so will just wait and see. Grin Grin
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MaxA
Barcelona


Joined: 11 Oct 2015
Posts: 1499
Location: Helsinki


PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations Phil on the return of your car. I expect that you'll have many happy years of motoring and mods ahead of you.

What are you going to do with the 'very fast lorry'?
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2010 9972 C4S PDK: Carrara White, Sea Blue. Mostly driven, lightly modified, occasionally tracked, and usually a bit grubby.
 
  
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Thefinn
Suzuka


Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 1038
Location: Essex


PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
Gents finally made it home ok , far too many people heading south ,I forgot it was the start of the easter weekend 🤔😁😎you know you have gone too far north when after an hour of driving your still 70 miles north of Birmingham . did check the car before leaving the North for stashed ferrets, Pigeons and whippets and who left a half eaten black pudding and tripe butty in my car.

Hartech is an interesting place its all about the cars there's no flashy sales area, its a good old fashioned engineering company full of guys who are passionate about the job.I had a tour round and very impressive what they do there.

Cars running great, Grant told me to run millers 5w40 for the next 2000 miles then switch back to millers 10w50 when I do the 2000 mile oil and filter change thats needed on the rebuilt engine.
Still running it in a bit, Grant told me to drive it how I normally drive it Surprised Hand Surprised Smile for the last bit of running in ,so I was careful to keep it under 115mph on the way home Grin Grin

Its funny as I had almost forgotten just what a grin driving a 911 is , the Bentley is nice and very fast in a civilised way, but it doesn't make you grin like driving a 911.

Right breakfast on Sunday with the local guys and then ready for Germany next weekend .
Thumb Thumb



Good news on getting the car back Phil and interesting news on the Fabspeed induction kit, that means i have a spare deck lid to sell now. Out of interest what was the verdict on the 82mm throttle body vs the 74mm standard one?
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Jcx
Estoril


Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 3864


2010 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad your car is back. Congrats. Did you learn what caused the issues? I havent read all 24 pages so if the explanation is in here and you can share a page number i'll go and read Smile
 
  
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FZP
Paul Ricard


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 3354
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chinese cats installed by previous owner from memory. Overrun ingested some of the material from the cats.
For years I used to think that manufacturers who claim warranty was void on new cars if you swapped out the exhaust as a con job. After Phils shennanigans, I'm happy to concede there is merit in the arguement
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Jcx
Estoril


Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 3864


2010 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FZP wrote:
Chinese cats installed by previous owner from memory. Overrun ingested some of the material from the cats.
For years I used to think that manufacturers who claim warranty was void on new cars if you swapped out the exhaust as a con job. After Phils shennanigans, I'm happy to concede there is merit in the arguement


Yikes! OK Thanks. I dont much like any cats!
 
  
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Norfolk & Idea
Albert Park


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1516
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jcx wrote:
FZP wrote:
Chinese cats installed by previous owner from memory. Overrun ingested some of the material from the cats.
For years I used to think that manufacturers who claim warranty was void on new cars if you swapped out the exhaust as a con job. After Phils shennanigans, I'm happy to concede there is merit in the arguement


Yikes! OK Thanks. I dont much like any cats!


Me neither. I'll never have that problem. Whipped em out sharpish when I installed full Kline system.... Smile
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2012 997.2 Turbo Basalt Black. Bit of a 9E ing.
2008 Ducati 1098R (Track)
2016 Macan GTS
2008 Vito Sport- Household Star!
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Norfolk & Idea
Albert Park


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1516
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FZP wrote:
Chinese cats installed by previous owner from memory. Overrun ingested some of the material from the cats.
For years I used to think that manufacturers who claim warranty was void on new cars if you swapped out the exhaust as a con job. After Phils shennanigans, I'm happy to concede there is merit in the arguement


So let me get this straight. Your exhaust system goes negative pressure (vacuum) on over run?? Dont know

And if so, surely we'll all be sucking carbon (super abrasive) deposits in continually.

Not trying to discredit anyone here, just trying to understand Confused
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2008 Ducati 1098R (Track)
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FZP
Paul Ricard


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 3354
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
Gents , I have finally some updates about my car. All you gen2 owners will be relieved to hear that the issue is not related to the gen2 engine in any way. After dropping the engine and opening up the engine Baz and his team found some very unusual debris in the engine and after analysing the material they found it was from the material used to make cats, so they pulled the 200cell cats from the car and found one had broken up. This metal had then on overrun been sucked back up into the engine and caused the damage .
This would explain how nobody except the best of the best was able to identify the issue. So finally and big thanks to Baz and the Hartech team worship worship we now know what caused the issue.
It seems the pistons are ok but the liners are damaged the crank and other parts seem to be ok, but I will get a full report soon along with recommended options for rebuild once Baz has had a chance to consider what would be the best for my car .
It seems that the car was before I brought it originally fitted with a custom made in the fareast sports exhaust, when this was fitted it was ridiculously loud and unplesant to listen to, So it was then fitted with cargraphic valved boxes and centre muffler delete kit, but the 200 cell cats from the original fareast custom job were left fitted and its these that have failed and caused the issue. So an interesting and unusual problem that I doubt many of us would have considered has happened , and another lesson learnt about using cheap nasty made in the far east parts on our cars.
I havent got any recourse on this as you would expect when dealing with the Fareast other than to learn from it and when refitting new 200cell cats make sure they come from a reputable source, As the rest of the exhaust is Cargraphic it makes sense to use Cargraphic 200 cell cats on the rebuild.
Grin I will keep you all updated Thumb Thumb Thumb

Phil's update confirming route cause from a while back
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Jcx
Estoril


Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 3864


2010 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks!
 
  
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Norfolk & Idea
Albert Park


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1516
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, thanks FZP Thumb
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2012 997.2 Turbo Basalt Black. Bit of a 9E ing.
2008 Ducati 1098R (Track)
2016 Macan GTS
2008 Vito Sport- Household Star!
2018 Ducati Panigale V4S (Track)
 
  
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G2
Barcelona


Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1342



PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Proof it made it to The porsche museum Thumb

Insert comments about parking angle here Whistling
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997 Gen2 Turbo S - Speed.
991 C4S - Riviera.
 



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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 924
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a brief catch up here on the subject of after market add-ons.

One of the reports I have been writing recently for eventual public consumption has been about how dyno's measure output. To keep it as brief as possible - when a car accelerates its mass the air flow is different as the rate of acceleration alters.

At one extreme - if the engine was run on a rolling road (or engine dyno) at fixed revs (say 5000 rpm) and running at those revs until it allows the initial unsteady gas flow to settle down the output will increase to a higher figure which can then be recorded and added to the next run at say 5,200 rpm (and so on).

The larger the inlets and exhaust areas and flow - the lower the output will be on the initial power reading but the higher it will be some seconds later.


Testing an engine this way will show higher output if the add-ons increase flow areas and volumes.


However - when accelerating - the engine is always in a dynamic state of change and under these conditions smaller inlet and exhaust areas usually result in higher overall acceleration times because there is less unsteady gas flow to settle down.


Trying to compute the recorded results to indicate the differences is a black art which can be prone to adjustments to make some results look better than others.


The only real test should be how fast the car accelerates through the gears between speed 1 and 2.


This difference accounts for a lot of the claims for various products providing higher outputs that then don't materialise if the method of testing by the operative accounts for pure performance results rather than just impressive ones.


Manufacturers of after market products will often exploit this difference for obvious reasons while good re-map specialists will conduct tests to reveal the true output in real life acceleration situations.


Also - when you change gear you have to accelerate through to peak revs before changing up and so on. The performance that results in the fastest acceleration is the one that has the highest average torque the rear wheels experience during those rev bands (which are bigger in low gears and reduce as you change up).


The fastest cars will have the greatest average torque from the engine between those rev bands. Add-ons that reduce torque at lower revs but increase it nearer peak revs will show a higher peak BHP to advertise (because BHP is proportional to revs*torque) but if the reduction in torque at the lower end of the rev band within those gear change revs is lower - the car may be no faster or even slower (although it may "feel faster" if it is noisier or if there is a surge of torque increase with revs that humans can feel.


Interestingly - if you increase the capacity of a standard engine it usually increases the torque where you need it in the mid range while still making more at the top end - but not as much - but increasing the average torque between the gear change revs and making the car faster and easier to drive.


This is why we have successfully made oversized versions of our M96/7 engines and hoped to do so with the 9A1 Gen 2 engines but found it much more difficult and incurring more technical issues to solve and overcome before we could offer it to the public and this is why Phil unfortunately missed out on this occasion.

More to follow for public scrutiny in a few weeks time.


Baz
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Kingb4
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 20 Jan 2018
Posts: 356
Location: Beds/Bucks


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great write-up Baz......I hadnt previously understood the variation in BHP while the engine is in different states. The way you have described it is easily understood and now sounds obvious (but wasnt to me previously Embarassed )

Its great to have these technical insights on the forum.....
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15189
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Baz for explaining that Thumb It sounds so much better than "Phil why didn't you have the Hartech 4ltr conversion " 'Because Baz said I couldn't " Grin Grin

It will make very interesting reading the subject of mods and do they or dont they produce results is debated so often on here and other places. as you say in certain conditions it might but thats no good it your driving style or needs doesn't produce those conditions.
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15189
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G2 wrote:
Proof it made it to The porsche museum Thumb

Insert comments about parking angle here Whistling


In my defence the car is parked straight the space is on the squ . anyone who's ever been to the museum will understand that nothing is straight there Grin Grin phew did I manage to explain my way out of that one Grin Grin
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G2
Barcelona


Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1342



PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nearly. They painted the arrows after you parked though Floor
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15189
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G2 wrote:
Nearly. They painted the arrows after you parked though Floor


Floor Floor Floor ah , are those directional arrows , I thought it was just decorative Grin Grin Grin
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