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Jamesx19
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 Jul 2015
Posts: 471
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

DavidM - Thanks, yes as Alex says, I understand the early cars have a small dual-row bearing. From 2001 onwards, a small single row bearing, and from 2005/2006 M97 engines had a large single row bearing which is not known to fail.

Maldren - Hi, yes I did consider it, but as s70rjw says, the Hartech option I feel is a complete solution to known design compromises in the M96. A new Porsche short engine is around £6K +Vat I think, which is also more expensive as well.

Wasz- No I didn't take any pictures. They were around 3-5mm round. Flat and rough. I assume particles had come off the bearing, and got sucked up by the oil pump, collected and then forced through the pump gears flattening the debris. That is only my thoughts. I don't actually know. There were 2x and they were a slightly red bronze colour.

Alex and Wasz - Ha ha, thanks guys, I was hoping for some debate on this kind of thing. To be frank, the ultimate arbiter here is cost.

Would I like a 3.7. Sure, it'll be faster more tractable and the car would be worth more to a potential future buyer (Maybe, but then the build is for me, not a future buyer). If I did that, I wouldn't bother with a lightweight flywheel as everything would be more stretched toward the design limits. Bigger bangs, are going to make the crank, conrods, bearings, timing chains, valve train etc etc.... work harder. The engine will produce more heat for the cooling system to deal with and so it goes on.

Giving my car to Hartech would maybe (I don't know I haven't asked yet) put another £1000 onto the cost for them to reassemble. Plus whatever the extra cost of the larger cylinders, and the cost of mapping. It might start getting a bit out of hand...
Part of the reason I took the engine out myself is to save on labour costs so I could spend more on internal strengthening and future proofing.

Do I think the car is slow as it is? Nope. On a recent trip to Wales, we went out for a days blast around some favorite A and B road haunts. I used full throttle only once and that was momentary.

Also , I enjoy the sensation and noise of acceleration. Sometimes a slower car allows you to savour this for longer, rather than Brrraapp..... and bang, your at warp factor gazillion and are now waiting off the throttle for the looming corner ahead.

But yes, I'd still like a 3.7 Smile

Cheers for your input
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 15945
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poker2009 wrote:
alex yates wrote:
If it were me in your situation now, I'd be getting the car trailered up to Hartech and let them refit & remap with the 3.7 option.


??


I guess that Alex didn't read the detail in James's earlier post.
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Marky911
Magny-Cours


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2560



PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouch James, Craig was telling me about this. nooo

It's what we all dread, although as said, it's something most of us will face if we keep the cars long term, which I intend to.

You're doing the wise thing and getting it done while hopefully a lot of the engine is salvageable. Should keep costs down compared to running it until it gives up or has more debris circulating through it than oil.

Will be sorted and worry free once done though and you'll quickly forget the financial pain. Just make sure you keep the bloody thing long enough afterwards, so you get the silver lining from the grey cloud. Grin

Keep the thread updated. Goodstuff. Thumb

... well it's bad stuff, but good info. You know what I mean. Wink
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 16781
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
Poker2009 wrote:
alex yates wrote:
If it were me in your situation now, I'd be getting the car trailered up to Hartech and let them refit & remap with the 3.7 option.


??


I guess that Alex didn't read the detail in James's earlier post.


Hartech will only do a standard rebuild if they dont't have the rest of the car. If they can refit the engine and test & remap then they will do the 3.7 upgrade. I'd send everything up there now and let them finish the job. Better after sales service too if something isn't right.
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 16781
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.......and deffo get the larger IMS bearing - it's a no-brainer.
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Osh
Sepang


Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 2956
Location: Bristol


PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great thread and watching with great interest. Please keep us all up to date OP and good luck. Thumb


Osh
 
  
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bazhart
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Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 968
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with the need for re-maps is that we cannot tell how well the original system is working without dyno testing it.

Generally most examples will cope without altering the map but this is not as ideal as re-tuning it to suit the new capacity and we have also found some cars have flat spots from their standard set-up that also exist after the oversized rebuild and they will run better after sorting that out.

Ironically some after market fittings we inherit also affect performance (usually making it worse than standard bit perhaps sounding louder or more jerky - making them feel faster).

Also - without wishing to cast any doubts about the ability of other specialists or private individuals, our staff have years of engine rebuilding experience, all the measuring, machining and building equipment necessary and have been building almost one/day for several years and this inevitably puts them in a better position to judge what additional issues may emerge in any one individual rebuild - which they then attend to.


So to preserve the quality of our conversions and our reputation we prefer to include a re-map.

We have fitted oversized cylinders for some others and allowed them to finish their own job off - but have found that some of the people involved have not then adjusted other things (like cylinder compressions etc) or simply fitted other components we have not run our conversions with and it is a worry - that this could backfire - so we prefer to continue with control over our own destiny as far as possible.

Generally an oversized engine (as long as the increase is not to high a percentage of the original capacity) with deliver more mid-range torque, better throttle response and an easier car to drive. It may not make it feel a lot faster or have a higher top speed and keeps the additional torque within the original parameters of the design limits - making a reliable option possible.

Baz
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ragpicker
Reims


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 4029
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no replacement for displacement Thumb
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Jamesx19
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 Jul 2015
Posts: 471
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marky911 – Thanks for the comments Mark. Yes, I feel you are spot on. The M96 paranoia will be a thing of the past with any luck.

Baz – Thank you for the post. Clear and informative as always.

As I said. Happy for forum members posting their own thoughts and opinions on what they may do in my position with their own car and money. I could of course start a “Save my Porsche” Charity for the ultimate no expense spared options….. Smile

The expert advice will of course ultimately be from Hartech who will be doing the complete build of the engine. Any thoughts from owners that already have rebuilds would be appreciated as well.

I’ll keep the thread updated with progress when it occurs.
Cheers
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Locosaki
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 03 Jul 2016
Posts: 328
Location: Fife


PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

I feel your pain mate, I got my car back from Hartech last April after sending it down for a rebuild, we didn’t know how bad mine was (same symptoms as yours) my oil light was on at idle and debris in the filter.

Anyway 12 month on I’m glad I did send to Hartech (Grant was brilliant to deal with) yes it was a serious expense at the time but as I say 12 month on and I’ve gotten over it and the car is going brilliant, it went reasonably well I thought before the rebuild but now it goes brilliant, I wonder how much ponies it had lost before the rebuild but now I can guarantee it has the 300 it was meant too.

I did think about pulling the the engine out myself but I just didn’t have the time so had no option really but send the lot down.

Anyway best of luck James
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Jamesx19
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 Jul 2015
Posts: 471
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Graeme. Reassuring to know. And great to hear it's not just rebuilt, but has noticeably stronger performance than before. I imagine you've got some great roads up there to enjoy it on as well.

Did you find a buyer for the alloys by the way?
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Locosaki
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 03 Jul 2016
Posts: 328
Location: Fife


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sold the wheels to Fast bug off the forum, he should hopefully be getting them today.

My car is currently sitting on axle stands as I sold the turbo twist wheels also, I've not actually found a wheel I really like for it yet and I've tried a few now
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crash7
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 649



PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baz - A question if I may, does/can a rebuild solve the oiling problems on the M96?

Would your 3.7 be able to reliably endure track work on trackday rubber, Cup2's, Trofeo R etc?
 
  
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Jamesx19
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 Jul 2015
Posts: 471
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Know what you mean Graeme, I thought seriously about some Oz Alleggerita's. Love the idea of low weight, but also want to keep things 'Porsche' looking rather than aftermarket. - Fuchs?
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Locosaki
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 03 Jul 2016
Posts: 328
Location: Fife


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m going to keep it Porsche also, for me the Alleggeritas are nicest aftermarket wheel I’ve seen on a 996 but as I say I want to keep it Porsche. I’m not a fan of the Fuchs, the search will continue.

Right about the weight difference though, the OZ’s are unbelievabley light compared to some.
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 968
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Crash 7,

There are a number of different issues involved in oiling so kindly please explain what specific "oiling" problem you are referring to - thanks.

Baz
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crash7
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 649



PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Baz

In short, all of them and I welcome your experience on the topic.

On track however oil starvation would be a primary concern. I am keen to acertain if should I go down the 3.7 route can the M96 be made to endure prolonged cornering G.

I notice the X51 has an additional scavenge pump to help elivate this issue, what are you thoughts on this solution? Can it be retro-fitted during a rebuild? Is it worth it? (I already have the X51 baffled sump)

Have you every looked into a dry sump solution for the M96?

(And prior to anyone stating the obvious, yes I know a GT3 solve the issues)
 
  
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bazhart
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Joined: 20 May 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We looked at all the available sump extensions kits years ago and most use an extension with the original sump underneath. The problem with this is that the spacer plate has holes on each side (to let the oil drip back in) and in a corner they let all the trapped oil out again - so although you have more oil we did not think this was good enough.

Furthermore if the car goes off track and hits a verge or rock the standard sump is very brittle and often shatters.

We made a whole new sump casting in strong aluminium and arranged it so all the oil from one side of the sumo has to go through the centre (where the pick up is) before it could reach the other side in a corner. Then we fitted flap valves that stop the oil escaping in the outer side in a corner.

The original baffle is then fitted and completes the set-up with a sump pick up extension and this has proven 100% reliable. more details, photos and fitting instructions can be obtained from Dan in our stores (phone).

We also fitted numerous recording devices when we were developing our own race cars and found that maximum G was decelerating into a corner just before the peak of the corner. at this point oil that has gone up the chain cam housing has flowed forward to the front of the bank 2 cambox where is can hydraulic lock the tappets and crack the flimsy dinky toy metal tappet housing. The additional scavenge pump on that side was to evacuate that area and prevent that problem.

The 997 later engines had the casting changed so the oil would fall and flow back to the chain housing - so should not present the same problem.

However it was only with slick tires and a very fast driver that the maximum G was reached and in fast road car use few drivers would ever reach enough G to cause a serious problem.

It is important when using our sump to realise that you do not then fill the engine to the original oil level mark but can leave it nearer the bottom "fill" mark - to get the best results.

The X51 system goes some way to addressing the problem and should be sufficient for all but the fastest of race cars on race slicks and at the front of the field.

Baz
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Jamesx19
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 Jul 2015
Posts: 471
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick update:

Not spoken to Hartech re the full picture yet, will call tomorrow. In the meantime I have been:

1.) Cleaning everything that came off the engine, and reassembling again.

2.) Replacing the alternator voltage regulator. I had a slow parasitic drain which discharged a full battery over about a week, and the charging voltage would drop down after initially showing 14 + Volts. (Though this may be normal?)

3.) Partially dis-assemble the starter motor to spray grease onto the internal gears (The starter cranked veerrrry slooowwly when the engine was hot) This may cure it, but I have also cleaned off the electrical contacts and tested resistance of the starter leads. All looks OK, but I may put additional new leads in parallel with the old ones to assist electrical conductivity. There is a junction box in the engine bay tucked away in the top of the transmission tunnel. When opened up, it looked like this:



Sorry, not the best pic. but shows the corrosion, and where its situated.....here:




4.) Other rusty parts to tackle are the transmission carrier bracket. I didn't take a picture before, but rest assured it wasn't pretty, and took some serious work with a drill and wire brush to clean it.






I have used POR15 previously, and while I liked it, it was a pain to clean the brushes. The process of using "metal prep" beforehand, and then having to top coat it was a pain as well. Instead, I have been trying/using Bilt Hambers Hydrate 80 rust converter. Initial thoughts are that although you have to completely clean all the oxide away down to bare (pitted) metal. It goes on easily. dries quickly. You can wash the brushes in soap and water. It can be overcoated in 24 hours. It promises good results. We will see!




There are areas of the engine bay that need attention while I can get access. Thi it top of the transmission tunnel where it meets the engine bay:




Exhaust brackets need some corrective work:






Lastly, I spent a morning tidying up the inner welds on the "Direnza" Stainless Steel exhaust manifolds I have bought to replace the originals, which Hartech had to prise off. Every one of the 12 bolts snapped in the heads apparently....

I just wanted to minimise any exhaust port to manifold downstream mismatch that might affect the efficiency and flow of gases leaving the engine. The left manifold needed a fair bit of grinding, but the right side appeared better made. Different person making each maybe?




Other purchases have been a new fuel filter and stainless steel manifold studs, stainless spring washers and brass nuts.

The oil filter tube has snapped. A new one is £38 +Vat!!!! I have bought a new O ring, and will fix the tube with heat shrink rubber tubing. Total cost £6. Fuel rails have been sorted on previous occasion, so they are good to go.

Cheers
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7265
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cough .. full sized jack .. cough

Im sorry .. i have a cold .
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