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DRZ911
Barcelona


Joined: 13 Mar 2013
Posts: 1388
Location: Belfast


PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G2 wrote:
Was looking at a 991.1 gt3 this week but head overruled the heart thinking the engine issues will make these cars the 991 turkey once the bubble bursts and we all go back to sensible homework before buying cars again.

Shame as I think they are great track tools. But the thought of buying a car that the manufacturer has to warrant the engine for 10 years free to paper over the cracks, No way.

Fair play to those that own them. Drive em and exploit the warranty when issues occur. But make sure they are gone before year 10.

To think people were paying overs for these?? Madness.


A very bleak prognosis indeed. nooo

Apart from the 10-year warranty, is there anything on the positive side?
As the Gen 1 GT3RS seems robust, does that mean that Porsche engineers really understand the root cause of what went wrong on the 3.8?
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Last edited by DRZ911 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Senoj
Zolder


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 5119
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im sure it was going pretty qquick before the ticking noise..

These are amazingly fast machines, real weapons. I think the engine swap is just economics else theyd be having OPC’s racking up vast hours on warranty work pulling out camshaftetc. I do wonder if theres a 991 gt3 slightly broken engine mountain somewhere....

My guess is that the indy networks will have or find a solve for the future owners as these pass down the food chain.

The mezger was retired rather than developed due to build cost iirc , i wonder if that worked out for them in the end?
 
  
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Norfolk & Idea
Barcelona


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1318
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love this model and fondly imagine I’ll have one in my garage one day.

But I do wonder that when Porsche’s 10 year warranty expires, and we’re half way there, that values will be badly impacted Dont know
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Diggermeister
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 357



PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:
I think the engine swap is just economics else theyd be having OPC’s racking up vast hours on warranty work pulling out camshaftetc. I do wonder if theres a 991 gt3 slightly broken engine mountain somewhere....
I can well believe that. It does make sense. I get a distinct (awful) feeling of deja vu with all of this, because I was a huge TVR fan as they went through a very, very similar engine issue with their in-house Speed Six.

Senoj wrote:
The mezger was retired rather than developed due to build cost iirc , i wonder if that worked out for them in the end?
Quite. In terms of whole cost liability, you cannot help but wonder whether some massive, cost accountancy bollock has not been dropped. Not to mention reputational harm.

For people to be openly and rationally discussing the suitability of a GT Porsche's power unit is lamentable.
 
  
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Bigfra
Monza


Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 191



PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G2 wrote:
Was looking at a 991.1 gt3 this week but head overruled the heart thinking the engine issues will make these cars the 991 turkey once the bubble bursts and we all go back to sensible homework before buying cars again.

Shame as I think they are great track tools. But the thought of buying a car that the manufacturer has to warrant the engine for 10 years free to paper over the cracks, No way.

Fair play to those that own them. Drive em and exploit the warranty when issues occur. But make sure they are gone before year 10.

To think people were paying overs for these?? Madness.


I recently bought my 991 GT3 at 8000 miles and it is still over list.

In all fairness I think a 10 year warranty is a great selling point when I get rid of the car in two years for a 720s
 
  
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david_yorkshire
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 282
Location: Herts


PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DRZ911 wrote:
david_yorkshire wrote:
DRZ911 wrote:
David, really sorry to hear about the engine in your car.

I'm not very good at counting, so please bear with me. Including the original factory fit engine, will this new engine be the 3rd or 4th that the car has had ? Any details of the spec on each engine?


4th engine
last one was a G series

Thanks. So the G-series engine seems to be flawed as well.
If so, then another iteration is likely.
Wonder if the new 4 litre engine of the Gen 2 addresses all known 3.8 litre issues Question


Hard to say if it's genuinely flawed or this is just a rogue; I know of no other G series engines that have had issues. I don't actually know what the issue is with my engine; I'll ask the OPC.
 
  
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Disco
Estoril


Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3874
Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:

The mezger was retired rather than developed due to build cost iirc , i wonder if that worked out for them in the end?


At least partly, but I believe that there were also emissions and headroom for power growth at play too.

The 991.1 does appear to be the weak link (in terms of longevity) that we wondered about when they announced it though, and it is telling that it was the significantly revised version in the 991.2 that is the one with the racing career ahead of it (and I will be surprised if that doesn't turn out to be the very last non-turbo, non-hybrid engine that Porsche ever produce too).
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jotaking
Montreal


Joined: 01 Jun 2012
Posts: 613



PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going back to the OP.

A 10-year engine warranty is a clear admission of failure?

Porsche are fond to spout on about their race pedigree and the reliability of their advanced engineering?

Even with a 10-year warranty, it still leaves a 10-year "trap door" for the future?

From my reading, all versions of the E,F & G engines have suffered from significant failings? Furthermore, most with minimal/low mileage?

For me, the mileage is the kicker.

From my reading, Porsche haven't issued any special measures to help mitigate the problem and/or have not set a definitive fix to correct the issue once and for all?

Surely the only way this can be rectified is to replace the unreliable 3.8 with the rock solid 4.0?

Without this fix, the 991.1 GT3 cars will always have a stigma relating to premature engine wear and catastrophic engine failure regardless of mileage and/or age.

With no indicators and/or measures in place IMO this makes them a ticking time bomb.

Leading to questions such as...

How comprehensive is the warranty??

Any signs of mods, over rev data and/or non-Porsche service history? Will Porsche be "out" faster than Duncan Ballantine?

Also...

What happens in 10 years? Will Porsche still offer an extended warranty?

Is there a definitive fix? Or is it just an engine replacement?

Does anyone know what the "out of warranty" costs are to rectify the faults and/or replacement engine?

IMO the cost to repair will have a major bearing on the future values when the 10-year "trap door" opens?
 
  
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FredGT3
Monza


Joined: 06 Sep 2011
Posts: 162



PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile some of us are quite happy extending our E engines to 9000 rpm with no issues. Not all engines have failed and if you read about the problem in detail rather than listen to internet forums its quite understandable.

The issues comes down to the number and location of inclusions in parts within the engine. They fail when the inclusions are close to the surface. I read what Porsche said and asked a family member who has a background in material science and engineering. They confirmed Porsche's explanation was viable.

If my engine goes tomorrow I will get a new one, I've no doubt. In some ways though I hope it doesn't and would prefer the engine to last probably meaning it hasn't got inclusions in the wrong places.

It is a pita for owners who have gone through this and I do feel for them but in someways it goes with owning a low volume car. I had one of the first V8 Esprits and had to have a new engine in that due to the liner glue problem they had, when mine went they couldn't work out where the water was going.

Regards
Fred
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jotaking
Montreal


Joined: 01 Jun 2012
Posts: 613



PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FredGT3 wrote:
Meanwhile some of us are quite happy extending our E engines to 9000 rpm with no issues. Not all engines have failed and if you read about the problem in detail rather than listen to internet forums its quite understandable.


I agree I am no expert, however, I do understand the problem. My issue is that there is no definitive solution?

E, F & G engines have failed for a variety of reasons. Porsche hasn't come out and said if we replace XYZ and maintain ABC it will cure the problem forever and therefore a 10-year engine warranty isn't required?

The question you need to ask is why are these engines failing when they have seen two revisions since E? Clearly Porsche didn't solve the issue on F or G? IHMO the failed fixes weaken the reputation of the 3.8 engine.
 
  
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G2
Österreich


Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 897



PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigfra wrote:


I recently bought my 991 GT3 at 8000 miles and it is still over list.

In all fairness I think a 10 year warranty is a great selling point when I get rid of the car in two years for a 720s


Fair play..the market is what the market is. Great low volume cars will always be in demand and command a premium. None of us really know where the market will go so I hope it puts a smile on your face everyday Thumb
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david_yorkshire
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 282
Location: Herts


PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve asked what this (G) engine failure
Mode was.

I don’t know yet, but will post it when I do.
 
  
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Gazc2
Albert Park


Joined: 08 Nov 2003
Posts: 1680
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the solution to this problem is to swap my appreciating asset with one of your depreciating assets and remove any stress you may feeling with GT3 ownership Very Happy I prefer red but happy to discuss other colours
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freddie44
Albert Park


Joined: 20 Aug 2009
Posts: 1659
Location: West Kensington

2007 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All hail Hanz.

Buy Mezgar people Cool
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david_yorkshire
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 282
Location: Herts


PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fault report:
One of the camshaft followers on bank 2 (right) has a flat spot with a corresponding wear mark on the bank 2 camshaft

Solution:
Fit new engine
 
  
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911UK
Porsche Community
Porsche Community


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9716
Location: 911UK

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

david_yorkshire wrote:
Fault report:
One of the camshaft followers on bank 2 (right) has a flat spot with a corresponding wear mark on the bank 2 camshaft

Solution:
Fit new engine


Whats the replacement engine count now ? frustrated
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Diggermeister
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 357



PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jotaking wrote:
FredGT3 wrote:
Meanwhile some of us are quite happy extending our E engines to 9000 rpm with no issues. Not all engines have failed and if you read about the problem in detail rather than listen to internet forums its quite understandable.


I agree I am no expert, however, I do understand the problem. My issue is that there is no definitive solution?
You mean the solution for specifying metal parts without flaws?

Very simple, lots of people manage this sort of thing every day. First rule being, do not buy on price alone.

As a mechanical engineer by trade and profession, I find the 'explanation' unsatisfactory.
 
  
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s2000db
Hockenheim


Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 727
Location: Sth Bucks

2011 Porsche 997 Turbo S

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Metallurgically, they would have fixed the inclusion problem, from probably a duff batch, quite quickly, or they were totally incompetent for several engine revisions...

Therefore the only conclusion that you can reach for this continued problem, is that there has to be a basic design issue, which they can’t work round, in order to get a permanent fix.

So unfortunately you have to reach the conclusion that this engine is fatally flawed and not fit for purpose... imo, ymmv, etc, etc.
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Diggermeister
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 357



PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

s2000db wrote:
Metallurgically, they would have fixed the inclusion problem, from probably a duff batch, quite quickly, or they were totally incompetent for several engine revisions...

Therefore the only conclusion that you can reach for this continued problem, is that there has to be a basic design issue, which they can’t work round, in order to get a permanent fix.

So unfortunately you have to reach the conclusion that this engine is fatally flawed and not fit for purpose... imo, ymmv, etc, etc.
100% agree. Or they are buying from/are tied to, contractually or otherwise, a source which cannot acquire the correct, basic material grade.

I have seen other examples of this myself. People (especially accountants) assume all European grades of engineering steel are available worldwide when, in fact, they are not.
 
  
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Bigfra
Monza


Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 191



PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggermeister wrote:
s2000db wrote:
Metallurgically, they would have fixed the inclusion problem, from probably a duff batch, quite quickly, or they were totally incompetent for several engine revisions...

Therefore the only conclusion that you can reach for this continued problem, is that there has to be a basic design issue, which they can’t work round, in order to get a permanent fix.

So unfortunately you have to reach the conclusion that this engine is fatally flawed and not fit for purpose... imo, ymmv, etc, etc.
100% agree. Or they are buying from/are tied to, contractually or otherwise, a source which cannot acquire the correct, basic material grade.

I have seen other examples of this myself. People (especially accountants) assume all European grades of engineering steel are available worldwide when, in fact, they are not.


I have some sexy European S355G10+M plate if you fancy it mate Grin
 
  
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