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Antony1974
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Joined: 02 Mar 2018
Posts: 1



PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: 996 GT2 Rev Range Reply with quote

Hi folks, I am new to this forum. I have owned various Porsche models over the years but nothing particularly special. Recently I have thought of buying a 996 GT2 as I see this model as the ultimate drivers car and can't afford a 997 GT2 or newer.

I have found one that I like but have some reservations due to the rev range count. The car is a Gen 1 car that has done less than 20k miles and the rev range check seems on the adverse side of things:

Range 1: 63,136 ignitions
Range 2: 345 ignitions
Total operating hours 418.

I have done some reading and there seems to be differing opinions on the subject. I would be very grateful for anyones, opinion or thoughts on the numbers above as I don't want to make a buying error of this magnitude. Thanks in advance, Tony.
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 14001
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Anthony.

Welcome to 911uk

You might find this of interest.

Click => http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-information/
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911UK
Porsche Community
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Joined: 15 May 2002
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1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Range 1 is fine, that's just going to the rev limit which for a 996 GT2 is 6750 to 7250 rpm

Rev Range 2 is the key info is when it occured, against the current operating counter, since it may have been over decade about ? or recently.

Any rev range 2 a long time ago of a small volume is less of a concern

Rev range calculation

- Number of igntions / 3 = number of engine revolutions
- Number of revolutions / by rev limiter = minutes spent at limiter
- Minutes spent at limiter x 60 = seconds spent at limiter.

Using your data:

Rev Range 1:
63,136 / 3 = 21,045
21,045 / 6750 = 3.11 minutes
3.11 x 60 = 187 total seconds at limiter from new

What is of concern is that there is only 418 operating hours which suggests a mileage of circa 30k (complete guess btw) and would questions on the history and ownership of the car

Rev 2
345 / 3 = 115
115 / 7250 = 0.0158 minutes
0.0158 x 60 = 0.95 seconds into Rev Range 2

Just need to check how long ago it was, rev 2 is low


To give context, I bought a GT3 with less than 14k miles and had 5 secs of Rev range 2 in it's 1st 5k of ownership, the car was fine

but as always "caveat emptor" applies to any potential purchase
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DJones
Montreal


Joined: 01 May 2011
Posts: 617
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I managed to achieve a rev range 2 pulling out of a junction sharply in 1st and spinning the rear wheel on a manhole cover and the shear moment at the top of the Rev range gave me a rr2... as soon as I got home I checked and there it was, frustrating but proved to me that it doesn’t have to be due to an incorrect gear change.

Darren
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ragpicker
Paul Ricard


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
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Location: North East England


PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive said many times before that I've witnessed a car with no rev range 2's going to the shop and back in crawling traffic and low revs, which then has a rev range 2. I was in the car when it happened.

I take them with a big pinch of salt.

More interesting is that with the data you mention, the car has done an average of 48mph throughout its life. Either it has been trailered to a track and never warmed up - just booted, or the mileage you've said isn't accurate - too low.

Most cars have a lower average speed across their lifetime than this when you consider the time it just sits idling or in slow traffic, at lights, being moved in/out of the garage etc.
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911UK
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1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ragpicker wrote:

More interesting is that with the data you mention, the car has done an average of 48mph throughout its life. Either it has been trailered to a track and never warmed up - just booted, or the mileage you've said isn't accurate - too low.


my aforementioned GT3 has an average speed based on operating hours v mileage over my ownership of 47mph which I can certify Very Happy

how they calculate operating hours is another issue,

although IIRC the max rev 1 that can be recorded is 65,000 ?
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ragpicker
Paul Ricard


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 3488
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

911UK wrote:
ragpicker wrote:

More interesting is that with the data you mention, the car has done an average of 48mph throughout its life. Either it has been trailered to a track and never warmed up - just booted, or the mileage you've said isn't accurate - too low.


my aforementioned GT3 has an average speed based on operating hours v mileage over my ownership of 47mph which I can certify Very Happy

how they calculate operating hours is another issue,

although IIRC the max rev 1 that can be recorded is 65,000 ?


worship

Fair play, would you say that is the exception or the rule?
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deMort
Shanghai


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 4607
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

30 mph is the standard and which we use on milage caulculations .. 47 is pretty dam good Thumb

Ive never been actualy told about operateing hours but i always assumed it was time with the engine running , ignition on doesnt count .

65 k is correct on the rev limit .

I tend to worry more if there is high rev ranges that have been recently done .. in the op,s case its less than 100 hours .. Porsche say 200 hours after an event before they will put a warrenty on said car .

Having said that .. GT2 are pretty rare .. low milage with not a huge amount of ranges again sounds pretty rare , rev ranges are only a part of the inspection though .

Ive seen range 6 on a car with no problems .. ive seen range 3 on an engine rebuild .. its a pointer that there may or may not be a problem .
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996ttalot
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Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony

RR1 ignore
RR2 ignore if more than 50 hours has passed.

Ken
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Scholester
Suzuka


Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 1016
Location: South West


PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

996ttalot wrote:
Tony

RR1 ignore
RR2 ignore if more than 50 hours has passed.

Ken

Ken,
What physical damage would you expect to see within the first 50 hours if all was not well? I always think of the Aircooled cars worth hundreds of thousands that may have been buzzed throughout their existence without any trace of the abuse.
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996ttalot
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Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scholester wrote:
996ttalot wrote:
Tony

RR1 ignore
RR2 ignore if more than 50 hours has passed.

Ken

Ken,
What would you expect t see within the first 50 hours if all was not well? I always think of the Aircooled cars worth hundreds of thousands that may have been buzzed throughout their existence without any trace of the abuse.


On a 996 turbo engine trust me - if someone does a money shift it is pretty obvious and normally is instant failure or within an hour of driving. Porsche say 200 hours - that is just playing safe from warranty perspective. 50 miles or one hour of running you would know generally. In terms of what sign other than on a failure, probably tappet noise. If there are no cels and the car is running well without any outward signs then very little risk. The actual valve clearance is huge on the turbo engine so it is very hard to bend a valve unless through something else breaking first.

The problem with RR2 is what was the actual rpm - could have been 7500 or 9500 - that’s the problem. 7600rpm on stock engine is fine after which tappets become and issue.

50 hours would be plenty of time for a problem to show itself.

Ken
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Scholester
Suzuka


Joined: 16 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

996ttalot wrote:
Scholester wrote:
996ttalot wrote:
Tony

RR1 ignore
RR2 ignore if more than 50 hours has passed.

Ken

Ken,
What would you expect t see within the first 50 hours if all was not well? I always think of the Aircooled cars worth hundreds of thousands that may have been buzzed throughout their existence without any trace of the abuse.


On a 996 turbo engine trust me - if someone does a money shift it is pretty obvious and normally is instant failure or within an hour of driving. Porsche say 200 hours - that is just playing safe from warranty perspective. 50 miles or one hour of running you would know generally. In terms of what sign other than on a failure, probably tappet noise. If there are no cels and the car is running well without any outward signs then very little risk. The actual valve clearance is huge on the turbo engine so it is very hard to bend a valve unless through something else breaking first.

The problem with RR2 is what was the actual rpm - could have been 7500 or 9500 - that’s the problem. 7600rpm on stock engine is fine after which tappets become and issue.

50 hours would be plenty of time for a problem to show itself.

Ken


Thanks,

You hear plenty of discussion on the over-Rev data but not so so the possible damage actually caused.
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911UK
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1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ragpicker wrote:
911UK wrote:
ragpicker wrote:

More interesting is that with the data you mention, the car has done an average of 48mph throughout its life. Either it has been trailered to a track and never warmed up - just booted, or the mileage you've said isn't accurate - too low.


my aforementioned GT3 has an average speed based on operating hours v mileage over my ownership of 47mph which I can certify Very Happy

how they calculate operating hours is another issue,

although IIRC the max rev 1 that can be recorded is 65,000 ?


worship

Fair play, would you say that is the exception or the rule?


Very much, driven to and from tracks all across Europe for 4 years, including residing at Manthey Motors in Germany.

Very much the exception.
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Slippydiff
Monza


Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 183



PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scholester wrote:
996ttalot wrote:
Tony

RR1 ignore
RR2 ignore if more than 50 hours has passed.

Ken

Ken,
What physical damage would you expect to see within the first 50 hours if all was not well? I always think of the Aircooled cars worth hundreds of thousands that may have been buzzed throughout their existence without any trace of the abuse.


Done properly, it'll snap the timing chain, whilst a half-arsed attempt will merely stretch the chain.
996 RR2 logs pretty useless really, as others have said, the RR2 could be 100 rpm over the limit, or it could be 2100 rpm over the limit.....
The question you've got to ask yourself is "Do you feel lucky punk ? Well do you ??"
 
  
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3305
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

911UK wrote:
ragpicker wrote:

More interesting is that with the data you mention, the car has done an average of 48mph throughout its life. Either it has been trailered to a track and never warmed up - just booted, or the mileage you've said isn't accurate - too low.


my aforementioned GT3 has an average speed based on operating hours v mileage over my ownership of 47mph which I can certify Very Happy

how they calculate operating hours is another issue,

although IIRC the max rev 1 that can be recorded is 65,000 ?


Pah, when I swapped my ECU out at 85K miles the engine hours were 1700 so an average of 50MPH. I don't get how people can pootle around in a GT3 - you need to be actually driving it hard for it to start making sense & earn its keep.
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Diggermeister
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 26 May 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

996ttalot wrote:


On a 996 turbo engine trust me - if someone does a money shift it is pretty obvious and normally is instant failure or within an hour of driving. Porsche say 200 hours - that is just playing safe from warranty perspective. 50 miles or one hour of running you would know generally...

...50 hours would be plenty of time for a problem to show itself.

Ken
I agree, This is what I'd been told from various sources; JZM, RPM, 911v too, as well as Mike at Sports & Classic.

My previous car, which was sold to be by the dealer as "original" had, unbeknownst to me, been mapped. part of the mapping allowed it to rev just past the normal limit and, therefore, into "range 2".

This was only uncovered during service work by Sports & Classic - they were seeing the count go up and wondered what on earth was going on. I eventually had is properly (re) re-mapped by Chip Wizards to prevent the issue.

It was a nuisance, because I could not sell the car when I wanted to, until the 50hrs passed, but I did at least know, for sure, there was no damage because there most definitely were not any fudged shifts.

The adoption of further rev-range monitoring on the 997 generation was a definite plus IMHO.
 
  
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