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seanyboy
Trainee


Joined: 22 Aug 2014
Posts: 52



PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:40 am    Post subject: Gen 1 991 GT3 buying advice Reply with quote

Im looking at possibly getting a generation 1 GT3 this year and was looking for advice.

Ive never owned a Porsche or sa car at that value before so its a pretty big step.
Im thinking for warranty purposes I am better buying from an OPC but its whether they come up with the spec I want, has to be cs, preferred colour would be black and pccb and sub 5k miles.

When buying from a dealership or independent, is there generally any movement on advertised price?

What is the service intervals on these cars and general costs per service, when re selling on i guess people prefer cars with Porsche service stamps?

Any advice would be greatly received.
 
  
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Norfolk & Idea
Barcelona


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1363
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucky lad. I absolutely love these cars.

I think Porsche have put a 10 year warranty on the engine after a few early failures. Google it for clarification.

I'd love to buy one but which ever way my man math's cuts it, I'll be paying overs. Based on this, I'm oot....

Oh, and no. I doubt you'll get a downward shift on price.

Good luck and enjoy thumbsup
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seanyboy
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Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply.

Prices seem to vary quite a bit on cars that are listed and sone seem overpriced and over my budget!
I think if I get the right car the residual should be low on it, not in any great rush as need to sell a car first, 911sport had a good priced cs car just before xmas but I wasn’t in the right position at the time, I’m sure something will come up.
 
  
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Norfolk & Idea
Barcelona


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1363
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

911 Sport get some nice stuff in there. They had a whole bunch of GT4's last time I was over.
For the GT3 I'd definitely want the PCCB brakes. Which of course lumps another 10k on the asking. The market seems rock solid though for the time I've been watching (18 months) Let us know how you get on Thumb
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m119cars
Monza


Joined: 28 Jan 2015
Posts: 162



PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been watching the market on these for a few months now.

CS ones sell very quickly and with your wish list I think your in the region of £130k+.

Advice I was given by a well respected indy was only buy one with a G series engine. This should ensure all the early problems are not an issue. As said previously Porsche are now giving a 10 year warranty but as most of these are 4 years old now that leaves 6 years and as we all know Porsche aren't afraid to wriggle when it comes to warranty claims.

Personally I would want one with the approved used warranty on but that doesn't mean you have to buy through OPC.

A lot of 'flippers' purchased these new and went for the safe options to ensure an easier/quicker sale, hence why there are so many white comfort spec cars around.

As far as residuals go I think there will probably be a slow downward curve, low mileage CS in PTS is the best way to retain value but you will pay more initially.

Good luck with the search.
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DRZ911
Barcelona


Joined: 13 Mar 2013
Posts: 1400
Location: Belfast


PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m119cars wrote:
Advice I was given by a well respected indy was only buy one with a G series engine. This should ensure all the early problems are not an issue. As said previously Porsche are now giving a 10 year warranty but as most of these are 4 years old now that leaves 6 years and as we all know Porsche aren't afraid to wriggle when it comes to warranty claims.

The G-series engine seems to be the engine to have but will be in very small quantities. F-series seems to be one step below the G-series, and E1-series is the absolute minimum. E0 engines were the ones that were recalled (so if any still left out, stay well clear).
A guy called James on PH posted the engine saga chronology last August, so many thanks to him (I hope he doesn't mind me reposting it) ...


The early GT3 cars, built up to May 14, had the original spec of MA175 engines with the prefix 'E0' (so: E01234 for example) where a handful (only) of them exhibited the conrod bolt issue (thought to be caused by the bolts not holding torque correctly, leading to the rod coming loose, punching a hole in the block, causing oil egress and the possibility of a fire). These early vehicles were subject to the 'stop sale/stop driving' recall in early 2014 and were subsequenty fitted with replacement engines. There were around 765 of these original 'E0' engines replaced, either at the factory (post May 14 as above) where cars were yet to be delivered, or at the supplying dealer where the car had been supplied already.

The replacement engines (and, indeed, engines fitted in series production for the remainder of MY14) were effectively to an updated MY14 specification which carried the prefix 'E1' (so: E11234 for example). They were built wth an 'optimised conrod bolt' but it is thought that there were also process changes in the factory to more accurately control the torquing of the bolts during engine assembly. I don't think there have been any reported incidences of any 'E1' (or later) spec engines exhibiting the conrod bolt issue.

However, as these 'E1' spec engines were used and increasingly subjected to in-service operations, including track work, a small proportion of them began to exhibit a top-end wear problem (wear on the rocker fingers/followers and/or on cam lobes). This was signalled to the driver by the illumination of a 'reduced performance' warning light, itself triggered by the wear in the upper valvetrain area causing a small timing issue at high engine rpm (typically 8500 rpm and above). Although the incidence of these failures is believed to be small, it appears that the root cause was a combination of insufficient lubrication in these areas combined with an incorrect or insufficient depth of the very hard 'diamond-like coating' (DLC) on the interfacing surfaces. It is likely that this design or process deficiency was also present in the original, pre-replacement engines but never came to light because of their relatively short in-service period.

In instances where these 'E1' spec engines have failed, they have typically been replaced with a new unit - generally being to the MY15 'G' spec engine (see two paragraphs below). It is these cars, believed to be very small in number, which produce the stories about cars having two replacement engines; the original replacement to overcome the conrod bolt issue and a second change to address the upper-valvetrain lubrication/wear problem.

In parallel to these issues becoming known on the MY14/'E1' spec engines, Porsche updated the engine again with a series of running-changes which were introduced at the start of MY15. These engines carry an 'F' prefix. The modifications are thought to include changes to address the emerging lubrication issue (incluidng uprated camshafts and followers/fingers) and some new ECU parameters to modify oil pressures under specific conditions. I think that the number of reported issues with valvetrain wear on 'F' spec engines is very low, although more time in-service is required to give complete confidence.

Finally, for MY16 (yes, there were a few cars...) a 'G' specification of engine was introduced. This went further than the mods introduced in the 'F' spec and incorporated additional engineering changes that had been developed for the MA176 RS engine, including a new oil pump and filter arrangement.

It is thought that, where 'E1' or 'F' engines show evidence of the lubrication and valvetrain wear problem described above, these units will be replaced with the latest 'G' spec (RS based) engine design, and that this approach forms the basis of the 10-year engine warranty that Porsche has spoken about (and which is expected to be formally confirmed by Porsche GB in the coming weeks).

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seanyboy
Trainee


Joined: 22 Aug 2014
Posts: 52



PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all your advice.

130k would be the top of my budget, the one at 911 sport was 122k and JZM have not long sold one for 124k, both cs but no pccb which id like but not a must!
I enquired about a 3.5k miler at on op the other week, 130k, cs but it was sold when i looked the next day, still waiting on the call back.
I would be looking for as late a car as possible mainly for the engine issues.

Is it worth paying more at an opc even though you can by from an indy with a porsche warranty? id probably prefer that and begin to try build a relationship with them in the hope one day id may be given the opportunity to buy a new car.

All on the market just now seem poorly spec cars, and white which id prefer not to have but if it was the right spec id consider.

theres a low miler on ph just now, cs, white for 132k, looks a nice car but they've had it a while.
 
  
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DRZ911
Barcelona


Joined: 13 Mar 2013
Posts: 1400
Location: Belfast


PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seanyboy wrote:
Is it worth paying more at an opc even though you can by from an indy with a porsche warranty?

As far as I am aware, the 10 year engine warranty is totally transferable. However, any remaining normal OPC warranty is not transferable unless bought through a private sale (which means the indie cannot pass on an OPC warranty, but can provide their own).

On a GT3 car, I would personally value an OPC warranty over just about anything else.
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m119cars
Monza


Joined: 28 Jan 2015
Posts: 162



PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saw the white JZM car in the metal and it was very nice, low mileage CS at a good price (decals weren't to my taste but could have been easily removed) and sold very quickly.

Looking at what's about currently with OPC you may struggle to get a CS under 5k miles for £130k.

If your hoping to build a relationship with a main dealer by buying a used GT3 in the hope of getting in line for a new GT car at some point in the future I wouldn't bother.

There is a good chance some more cars may start to filter through in the next few weeks as a lot of buyers for the .2 are waiting for the new reg in March before taking delivery and could be PX .1's.
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seanyboy
Trainee


Joined: 22 Aug 2014
Posts: 52



PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m119cars wrote:
Saw the white JZM car in the metal and it was very nice, low mileage CS at a good price (decals weren't to my taste but could have been easily removed) and sold very quickly.

Looking at what's about currently with OPC you may struggle to get a CS under 5k miles for £130k.

If your hoping to build a relationship with a main dealer by buying a used GT3 in the hope of getting in line for a new GT car at some point in the future I wouldn't bother.

There is a good chance some more cars may start to filter through in the next few weeks as a lot of buyers for the .2 are waiting for the new reg in March before taking delivery and could be PX .1's.


The one Porsche Solihull had was 130k, 3.5k and a cs car.
Yeah wasn’t a fan of the decals on the jzm car either.

Gog offered a comfort spec car, 5.5k but was a comfort pack, wasn’t told value but the sand dealer sold a yellow car with pccb at 130k butvtgwf was lower miles.
 
  
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david_yorkshire
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 284
Location: Herts


PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there's not many cars around with the min the spec / mileage you're after.
You are looking at the right spec tho.
I'd also go for axle lift - you'd be surprised how little a bump you can't get over without it !

Mines a CS spec, PCCB, G series engine, axle lift, LED h/lights etc
 
  
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Rallyeman
Indianapolis


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 2402
Location: WEST WICKHAM KENT


PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PORSCHE warranty is a must imo
My mate, has just p/ex his 991.1 CS, for a 99.2 CS. He was on his third engine PC
The third engine was using a lot of oil, half to a litre between top ups. Now he does do 2/3 track days a year. 2nd engine, kept going into limp mode, and wouldn't rev to max.
After the third engine, the OPC told him, to just keep an eye on it Floor
So he's waiting for his March delivery.
In the meantime, he sees his car, advertised up north, with an indie, so his OPC didn't even want to give it a PORSCHE warranty. What does that say?
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seanyboy
Trainee


Joined: 22 Aug 2014
Posts: 52



PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rallyeman wrote:
PORSCHE warranty is a must imo
My mate, has just p/ex his 991.1 CS, for a 99.2 CS. He was on his third engine PC
The third engine was using a lot of oil, half to a litre between top ups. Now he does do 2/3 track days a year. 2nd engine, kept going into limp mode, and wouldn't rev to max.
After the third engine, the OPC told him, to just keep an eye on it Floor
So he's waiting for his March delivery.
In the meantime, he sees his car, advertised up north, with an indie, so his OPC didn't even want to give it a PORSCHE warranty. What does that say?


Thats not very reassuring, so the later engines had issues also?
 
  
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seanyboy
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Joined: 22 Aug 2014
Posts: 52



PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

david_yorkshire wrote:
there's not many cars around with the min the spec / mileage you're after.
You are looking at the right spec tho.
I'd also go for axle lift - you'd be surprised how little a bump you can't get over without it !

Mines a CS spec, PCCB, G series engine, axle lift, LED h/lights etc


Yeah they seem to be quite rare, top555 had a nice black one that had the perfect spec a while back, they had it for a while but it eventually went.

I need to sell my escos before making a move on one but I've a few things i need to get done to that first so i'll prob be into march/april before being in the market for one....but if the right one comes up....
 
  
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DRZ911
Barcelona


Joined: 13 Mar 2013
Posts: 1400
Location: Belfast


PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rallyeman wrote:
After the third engine, the OPC told him, to just keep an eye on it Floor
So he's waiting for his March delivery.
In the meantime, he sees his car, advertised up north, with an indie, so his OPC didn't even want to give it a PORSCHE warranty. What does that say?

Sad
Any idea if the 3rd engine was a F-series or a G-series spec. Question
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jotaking
Hockenheim


Joined: 01 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP, great position to be in and an excellent choice.

I have had my finger on the 991 GT3 pulse for the last 18 months.

18 months ago the cheapest was circa 120k. Recently The cheapest I’ve seen has been 110k.

130k should get you close for the spec you want.

Regarding engine issues....

From my reading the early engines had problems with the connecting rods.
Following on from this there were problems with premature valve wear on the “finger followers”?
Porsche revised the engine design E to F and then to G type.
I believe the revisions included new oil lines and filter with a new durable coating on the finger followers?

As said by others....These are all now covered under a 10 year engine warranty.

There is some good reading on rennlist about the defects here..

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/1005204-991-1-gt3-cog-our-meeting-with-pcna-pag-plus-porsche-s-official-announcement.html


I have attached some Porsche bulletins relating to the wear problem below.

IMO you need to factor a new OPC warranty for the duration of ownership. This will set you back 1250 per annum.

Good luck with your search! Thumb
 



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991 gt3 tb.png
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FredGT3
Monza


Joined: 06 Sep 2011
Posts: 164



PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a CS 18 months ago with a nice spec. Just do it if you can, brilliant cars.

I wouldn't have one without the warranty. No engine probs on mine but it has had a new gearbox.

Hope you find what you are looking for.

Regards
Fred
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seanyboy
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Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FredGT3 wrote:
I bought a CS 18 months ago with a nice spec. Just do it if you can, brilliant cars.

I wouldn't have one without the warranty. No engine probs on mine but it has had a new gearbox.

Hope you find what you are looking for.

Regards
Fred


Thanks Fred, I've had a real itching for a long time and its just picking up the courage to sell my escort cosworth to part fund it, that'll break my heart but I doubt i'll be disappointed with a GT3. Ive never even been in one but can't stop looking at them!
 
  
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FredGT3
Monza


Joined: 06 Sep 2011
Posts: 164



PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seanyboy wrote:
Thanks Fred, I've had a real itching for a long time and its just picking up the courage to sell my escort cosworth to part fund it, that'll break my heart but I doubt i'll be disappointed with a GT3. Ive never even been in one but can't stop looking at them!


My Escort Cosworth is the only car I regret selling. Sold it back in 98 when it was 4 years old. I would regret selling the Evo VI but kept it so I didn't!

The GT3 is so visceral though that I don't think you'll miss it when you're smiling as its going upto 9k.

Plenty of mis-information from people on the engine issues. Plenty of E1 engines still out there with no problems. Read up on what fails and how it is down to the number and positions of random occlusions and make your own decisions.

Cheers
Fred
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seanyboy
Trainee


Joined: 22 Aug 2014
Posts: 52



PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FredGT3 wrote:
seanyboy wrote:
Thanks Fred, I've had a real itching for a long time and its just picking up the courage to sell my escort cosworth to part fund it, that'll break my heart but I doubt i'll be disappointed with a GT3. Ive never even been in one but can't stop looking at them!


My Escort Cosworth is the only car I regret selling. Sold it back in 98 when it was 4 years old. I would regret selling the Evo VI but kept it so I didn't!

The GT3 is so visceral though that I don't think you'll miss it when you're smiling as its going upto 9k.

Plenty of mis-information from people on the engine issues. Plenty of E1 engines still out there with no problems. Read up on what fails and how it is down to the number and positions of random occlusions and make your own decisions.

Cheers
Fred



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