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dp400
Trainee


Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 55



PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Looking for a 996 Carrera 4S Reply with quote

Hi All,

First time poster here. Having just sold my TVR that I've owned for the past 15 years, Im now looking for a 996 Carrera 4S and wondered if anyone on here is considering selling one that might suit.

Im after a manual - in midnight blue, lapis blue or seal grey. Will consider a coupe or convertible.

Ive got a budget limited to a max of £25k.

Also I've read lots of horror stories all over the net about IMS and bore score issues. I'd like to know where I can find a good buyers guide that separates fact from fiction and tells me what to look out for when buying. Ive also read that early 996's are more prone than later ones to these issues. Can anyone shed any further light on this?

I know thats alot of questions for a first post, but Im still trying to learn whats what when it comes to 996's and would appreciate any help that anyone can give.

Thanks in advance

Dave


bye
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 14622
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have a good scroll down all the posts on the 996 sub-forum and you'll find dozens of previous discussions.

The recognised experts on these engines are Hartech and within their excellent website you'll find a buyers guide and a sub-section on these engines.

=> http://www.hartech.org/

Welcome to 911uk.

Good luck with your research and search for a car. Thumb
_________________
2007 Guards Red 997 Turbo Tiptronic
ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
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Beef40
Silverstone


Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 127
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome Dave.

I have owned my 2002 Seal Grey Carrera 4S since June 2014.

Purchased the car from Paragon with 63k on the clock, now has 82k.

Car has been brilliant throughout. Only mechanical failure / breakdown occurred shortly after I got the car when the alternator failed which was fortunately covered by Paragon's warranty on the car.

Don't be put off by mileage. These cars want / need to be used and require regular routine and preventative maintenance. I would not be wedded to official Porsche Service Centre (OPC) history either. Plenty of really good independent garages out there like Paragon and Nine Excellence.

Buy the best example you can, preferably a manual and ensure the car has full maintenance history / previous MOT's / invoices etc.

Don't listen to the internet horror stories regarding IMS / RMS / AOS failures. In nearly 4 years of ownership, I have yet to meet someone who has actually suffered an IMS failure, although I know plenty, including my car, that have had the IMS replaced as a preventative measure. Best to get this done, if you're worried, when changing the clutch etc.

They really are great cars to own and run. I would set aside c.£2k per year for routine / preventative maintenance. You won't always spend it every year but thats the average etc. I have had years where the car has cost me £684 and another where it needed new tyres / brake discs & pads all around plus front suspension top mounts, a major service and MOT that cost me c.£4k. And yet, I was pleased to spend the money as the work carried out simply transformed the performance of the car etc.

Good luck with your search for the right car and let us know how you get on!

Nick
_________________
2012 997.2 Carrera 4 GTS (Meteor Grey)
2002 996.2 Turbo (Arctic Silver)
2002 996.2 Carrera 4S (Seal Grey)
2017 Audi S3 Saloon (Daytona Grey Pearl)
 
  
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EGTE
Imola


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 802



PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever/wherever you buy from, get a really, really good pre-purchase inspection from a specialist.

Look for fastidious maintenance (bills, not stamps).

Like all Porsches, they will need major maintenance at higher mileages (gearbox and engine do 'wear out'), so avoid stellar-mileage examples, unless the engine has been rebuilt (including crank bearings) and gearbox too.

But if you change the oil every year (NB Hartech recommend 10W-50 Millers NanoDrive), fit a low-temperature thermostat , then as said above, ignore the over-done horror stories and enjoy!
 
  
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6642
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome! Another seal grey manual 4S owner here...

For that sort of money you can get one that has had a full rebuild and a new IMS bearing, so that's those two problems out of the way...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201710029872472

Just a quick resume of stuff to consider. As said above, get a proper inspection done for peace of mind.
- Bore scoring/cylinder ovalisation. It does happen, some say inevitably, but at varying speeds. It can be inspected for using a borescope. It can be slowed considerably by careful use, ie don't let the engine labour, don't rev when cold, use top notch oil changed regularly, low temperature thermostat etc. Bottom line as I see it is that a well maintained and driven M96 engine will last as long as any other high-performance engine before needing a rebuild.
- IMS bearing. If its lasted this long, chances are its fine. No harm in getting a Hartech upgraded one fitted at clutch change time, along with a new RMS, but beware of snake-oil salesmen.
- Suspension. Can get worn and creaky and will cost ££££ to sort out.
- Brakes. Turbo spec and expensive. Look for corrosion, particularly on the inside of the rear discs.
- Brake lines- can get corroded.
- Air oil separator (AOS) - not an expensive part, but requires engine drop to fix. Imminent failure hard to spot, other than undue exhaust smoke, oil usage.
- The last 4S will now be 13-14yrs old. Watch generally for corrosion and other age-related stuff.
- Good options to have; Litronics (i.e Xenons. Standard lights are not great), Bose. Hard back sports seats are good but you lose the full electric memory function, so take your choice... coming from a TVR you will want a more snorty exhaust... the PSE is switchable and sounds fab.
- Look at interior condition. Soft touch plastics and leather can look a bit dog-eared now if not well cared for, a nice interior is a sign of a loved car.

Mine has averaged at around £1000 per year plus routine work over 3 yrs, inc suspension work, AOS failure and tyres. Its due a minor this year, but needless to say there are odds and ends that I dare say will cost, you guessed it, £1000...

They are quite easy to work on yourself if you are handy.
_________________
"911- the guilt-free supercar"

Current: 2003 C4S Coupe, seal/black

Ex: '02 C4S Coupe, '96 993 Targa, '88 Carrera Sport Coupe
 
  
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INWB
Monza


Joined: 02 May 2016
Posts: 170
Location: Leicestershire


PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a blue manual, black interior and 60,000 miles but it isn't for sale unless someone starts with a number 3.

However, welcome to the forums.

Account for around £2K per annum, more if you want to improve the car to top condition.

To add to the advice above - lots of tat is out there so be careful.

Take a look at the mufflers (they split) and the manifolds (they rust). Just spent £2K getting those done.

Brake Lines corrode around fixtures. Full days labour to sort

Don't worry too much. It will almost certainly be more reliable than your TVR and you will really enjoy the car and the real experts on here to help on the way.
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dp400
Trainee


Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 55



PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys, thank you so much for your responses. It seems to me that you Porsche owners are a pretty helpful bunch, just like the TVR lot!

Once the new owner of my TVR collects the car next weekend I'm going to start looking around and go view some Pork.

Im also considering a 997 Carrera or Carrera 2 as an alternative to a 996 C4S as they seem to be around the same money at the moment.

I guess Im going to have to look at both up close to decide which way Im going to go.

Im sure Ill be back soon asking more questions but for now thanks again!
 
  
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Osh
Sepang


Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 2807
Location: Bristol


PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morning dp400 - I had a Chimera many years ago; its the only car i've had tears in my eyes when i had to sell it (got divorced and two young kids couldn't fit properly in the one passenger seat). It was genuinely a brilliant, brilliant car - I loved ever second of owning and driving it; I know a lot of people slag TVR's off but (like the IMS/RMS myths) a lot of that is just old wives tales. My Chim only let me down once in 18 months when the alarm fuse blew on Tescos car park.

Other than that it never once let me down and started every time and drove like a dream.

Hope your jump to Porker ownership is as good as your TVR experiences; some good advice above - just remember 996 C4S's are now at least 14 years + old so they are bound to have something that needs doing to them (like TVR's!) - £2k pa is about right as a budget.

When you find the one you want - and its a bit of a beauty contest out there and some are mutton dressed as, er, mutton, please make sure you get it PPI's and ensure you have a boroscope. Other than that - if you go in to it knowing what you've bought you should be fine.

You are right - this place is massively helpful. There are some great people on here with a wealth of knowledge in all things Porkified - there's also an ethos of there are @no stupid questions - just questions'. When it comes to parting with your hard-earned than ask away - you'll always get someone who will help.

When you find something you are interested in buying don't be afraid to share it here and ask for views; some might actually know the car you are looking at, its history, the source you are thinking of buying from, a view on the price, etc.

Good luck with your search and keep us all informed. Looking forward to seeing Porsch-porn pictures of your new P&J.


Osh
p.s. - where you based...??
 
  
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Griffter
Monza


Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 216



PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of points in view of the above not yet covered:

Anecdotally, of the 996 engines it is the later (3.6 - so all C4S) engines that are more prone to bore scoring. However these have a larger, more robust IMS bearing. It is this bearing that Hartech will fit when rebuilding an engine. The jury’s out on whether replacing the bearing in situ (ie not during a rebuild) offers benefits which outweigh the risks.

Good luck with your search. I have a (narrow bodied) seal grey C4 because I wanted the 3.4 engine and the early headlamps!

I also came from a TVR (Griffith 4.3 big valve conversion). I still miss it.
 
  
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6642
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Griffter wrote:
A couple of points in view of the above not yet covered:

Anecdotally, of the 996 engines it is the later (3.6 - so all C4S) engines that are more prone to bore scoring. However these have a larger, more robust IMS bearing. It is this bearing that Hartech will fit when rebuilding an engine. The jury’s out on whether replacing the bearing in situ (ie not during a rebuild) offers benefits which outweigh the risks.

Good luck with your search. I have a (narrow bodied) seal grey C4 because I wanted the 3.4 engine and the early headlamps!

I also came from a TVR (Griffith 4.3 big valve conversion). I still miss it.


Sorry to contradict, but the 3.4s have the better dual row IMS bearing, which they dropped for the 3.6. It was only improved with later 997.1s.

3.4s also don't get scored bores to the same extent so happy days! It seems to afflict 3.8 S cars more than 3.6.
_________________
"911- the guilt-free supercar"

Current: 2003 C4S Coupe, seal/black

Ex: '02 C4S Coupe, '96 993 Targa, '88 Carrera Sport Coupe
 
  
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dp400
Trainee


Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 55



PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Does anyone out there know this car...............

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201801263112903?colour=Grey&colour=Unlisted&sort=price-desc&make=PORSCHE&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&transmission=Manual&price-to=27500&postcode=sg99dp&model=911&price-from=18000&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&page=1
 
  
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6642
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dp400 wrote:
Hi

Does anyone out there know this car...............

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201801263112903?colour=Grey&colour=Unlisted&sort=price-desc&make=PORSCHE&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&transmission=Manual&price-to=27500&postcode=sg99dp&model=911&price-from=18000&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&page=1


No, looks lovely, but my attention is drawn to the exhaust tips... have a look at the pics of the rear, and the left hand tip... see that it is a bit blacker than the right tip. This can be a sign of bore score, not definite, but would defo want a borescope.
_________________
"911- the guilt-free supercar"

Current: 2003 C4S Coupe, seal/black

Ex: '02 C4S Coupe, '96 993 Targa, '88 Carrera Sport Coupe
 
  
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PDCC4S
Newbie


Joined: 09 Oct 2017
Posts: 23



PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi dp400

I researched & went for the 996 C4s & as a new Porsche owner ( 7 months ) love the choice I made, black on black manual gearbox 70k miles 3 owners but it took me months to find & in the end the choice was down to one from a private seller & one from a Porsche specialist. The private seller was 1K higher in price & had the IMS bearing updated but the car had been on the inter web for a good few months & when I called the guy he then pushed a hard sell approach calling me 3/4 times daily ( also found a issue with the millage which worried me ) which I thought was a bit much so I ditched this car & went with the Porsche specialist. The C4s was without the IMS bearing up grade but after much advice from not only the specialist selling the car but talking to two independents I purchased the car & had another minor service just to check the oil filter. My point is the car is wonderful to look at, drive & a joy to own, all the info I gathered tells me they don't all go bang so, research buy enjoy & drive, I set aside £1500 p/a to service the C4s & ive found a fantastic independent to service & offer advice so happy days.

Hope the above helps your new purchase let us know how you get on.
 
  
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toddy2
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 269
Location: Dorset


PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
dp400 wrote:
Hi

Does anyone out there know this car...............

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201801263112903?colour=Grey&colour=Unlisted&sort=price-desc&make=PORSCHE&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&transmission=Manual&price-to=27500&postcode=sg99dp&model=911&price-from=18000&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&page=1


No, looks lovely, but my attention is drawn to the exhaust tips... have a look at the pics of the rear, and the left hand tip... see that it is a bit blacker than the right tip. This can be a sign of bore score, not definite, but would defo want a borescope.


Nice looking cab, usually don't like cab porkers but that looks great.
I'm a relatively new C4S owner coming from a TVR griff. Like you I considered a 997, glad I opted for the 996 C4S better noise and more presence, and the backend looks gorgeous.

Good luck with your search Thumb
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EGTE
Imola


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 802



PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without wishing to be too controversial, wouldn't a C4S cabriolet be pretty much the heaviest (and therefore) slowest of the normally-aspirated 996 models?

Just thought it might be worth mentioning, if speed is your thang (it is mine Very Happy ).

Looks nice, though. Thumb
 
  
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jerzybondov
Monza


Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 156



PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EGTE wrote:
Without wishing to be too controversial, wouldn't a C4S cabriolet be pretty much the heaviest (and therefore) slowest of the normally-aspirated 996 models?

Just thought it might be worth mentioning, if speed is your thang (it is mine Very Happy ).

Looks nice, though. Thumb


Yes, and if you've got a tip box too (which posted one doesn't) it's something like 300kg heavier than a C2. Oof!
 
  
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GMG
Silverstone


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 140
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...when looking for my first Porsche I did consider a C4s principally because of the looks, however it would be my view that they are vastly over valued using any non subjective looks based metric...compared to a bogo C2 for example.


They are slower, wider,heavier and more expensive to run; the 4 wheel drive is antiquated and in all probability lost most of its efficiency due to age related clutch wear thus I couldn't for the life of me justify the significant extra cost?

Perhaps I shouldn't complain because this market distortion enabled me to get hold of a low mileage,mint C2 for under £17k ! Additionally, the market is flooded with them compared to decent C2s...
 
  
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gazb
Newbie


Joined: 15 May 2010
Posts: 40
Location: bury


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pm sent
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Tomo
Newbie


Joined: 30 Jun 2016
Posts: 31



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
...when looking for my first Porsche I did consider a C4s principally because of the looks, however it would be my view that they are vastly over valued using any non subjective looks based metric...compared to a bogo C2 for example.


They are slower, wider,heavier and more expensive to run; the 4 wheel drive is antiquated and in all probability lost most of its efficiency due to age related clutch wear thus I couldn't for the life of me justify the significant extra cost?

Perhaps I shouldn't complain because this market distortion enabled me to get hold of a low mileage,mint C2 for under £17k ! Additionally, the market is flooded with them compared to decent C2s...


A good argument. but you're missing the fact that they look ***** awesome! Which is a large factor why people purchase them. Next to a C2 they are night and day in my opinion. As always though you pay your money , you take your choice. It's likely they will hold a stronger value over a C2, so although the initial payout is more, you'll likely net more when you sell.
 
  
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6642
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is something about the 4S... as well as the looks its the way it drives. So much more than the sum of its parts.

Its the only model of car I've ever felt moved to buy again, having sold one and missed it.
_________________
"911- the guilt-free supercar"

Current: 2003 C4S Coupe, seal/black

Ex: '02 C4S Coupe, '96 993 Targa, '88 Carrera Sport Coupe
 
  
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