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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: 2008 cayenne 4.8T check engine issue Reply with quote

Have a check engine light on our 2008 cayenne turbo

Was intermittent (sometimes came on and then cleared itself) but now on all the time. Engine seems a little sluggish and down on power.

Code is P0016 which relates to cam/crank position correlation issue. I've replaced the cam hall sensor on bank 1 (left side of v8 as viewed from front of car looking into engine bay) and cleared the code and performance seems better but after a 5 mile drive and a check with code reader I've noticed that the same code is pending and I assume the check light will return.

Any ideas of other possible causes?

I've read perhaps a failing variable timing solenoid or one that's dirty or partially blocked could cause this? I think the car is just about due a service.

TIA
 
  
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kas750
Shanghai


Joined: 31 Mar 2013
Posts: 4593
Location: Chorley lancashire

2006 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friend of mine had a similar problem and it was a stretched timing chain which was causing the problem.
I’m not sure if your engine is prone to that?
 
  
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers

We've had a cayenne before for nearly 10 years and 100k driven and I don't think chain stretch is something they are known for.

I don't have the test equipment for analysis of this and indeed hope there's nothing going on like that inside.

Perhaps a good service first and clean of cam actuator solenoids (perhaps swap them side to side and see if issue follows to that bank) as first port of call?

Would a failing crank position sensor give the same issue? Just wondering if its momentarily not giving signal while the engine is running then cam correlation to it would be off? (Doesn't explain why it's only bank 1 though and not both)
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7596
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes im afraid the chains do stretch , you can see it on a tester if you look at cam deviations on each Bank.

One side will be worse than the other as its further away from crank.

This will normally cause uneven idle , a general lumpyness basically.

For a fault code to be generated it would have to be pretty bad .. ive seen stetched ones but never one to that extent .. normally the variocam can compensate for it .

First thing then is to check and see what the devations are .. most ive seen have been 12 degrees .

Big question .. have you had any misfire codes or do you have a tester that can show real time misfires as they occur and if so are they only on one bank ?

Reason being ive just had a very strange fault on one that at first glance was looking like a chain but turned out to be a very differnt sensor indeed .

Crank position sensor can become loose .. just have a quick look and make sure its tight .

A single failed cam sensor wont cause a problem and its not uncommon to see it , you will also have a fault code for it .


EDIT

Some info if you havent already seen this ..

https://www.obd-codes.com/p0016
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info Demort

I will have a look at the crank sensor if I can locate it (underneath on these?). There's no lumpiness at idle and no misfires at all recorded and it feels smooth, just a little down on power (which i assume is due the the Check light being on and timing being held back)

The only code was p0016 and i swapped out the cam sensor on left bank (assuming that is bank 1).

My code reader can see live data and I noticed there's two separate fields in there for advance. At a guess I would need to rev it at 2500 and hold steady and check the results. The field isn't marked cam advance (simply timing)

Can the variocam actuators get sluggish or stick on one side with dirty oil and can they be swapped bank to bank to see if the code changes to follow??
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7596
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CPS is underneath and more to the n/s ,

I dont think your reader can see what im thinking .. its called camshaft deviation and will be a set figure .. ie 8 degrees .

What you have is probably just cam timing .

The fault code is basically saying the CPS is seeing the camshafts in the wrong position from what it expects at various rev ranges .

Yes the actuator could in theory be stuck .. i would have thought you would get a fault code if it was but its certainly worth checking .. im not sure if there is a drive link for this ( you activate it with engine running to test ).

Ive not had any problems with these on a Cayenne before though so dont have any real experience of what faults they could generate.

The fault code you have is a generic one , OBD , and not the Porsche specific one .. if its possible then someone like 9E to use their tester and get the Porsche fault code and see what the devations are .. a half hour check basically ... if doing that then ask that Matt has a look and mention i sent you .
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm giving it a general once over at the moment.

Front bumper off, intercoolers cleared of rubble and a birds nest! Rad cleared of leaves etc (thinks it's a 996!)

Ive put fresh Mobil 1 and a filter on and have taken the intake manifold off to swap the starter motor and discovered a small leak from the metal feed pipe which will need a new seal.

We noted the thermostat has been stuck open as the car over cools when on the mway so I'm swapping that too.

Assuming here that I need to remove the water pump to get the thermostat out but can't see how the metal feed pipe block comes off the top of the unit. Any ideas?

Also noted that the vacuum t line on the back of the manifold link pipes is broken so will have to fabricate a fix there.

Once it's all done and back together I may pop down and see you if you can check the cam deviation ( You are right next to the bluebell railway arnt you?)

I do have a printout from OPC at Mid Sussex of the codes but I can't read the file
Cars eh!!
 
  
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JSP
Newbie


Joined: 26 Nov 2019
Posts: 4



PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:06 am    Post subject: CODE P0016 Reply with quote

Hi Harv,

I also have a 2008 Cayenne turbo with check engine light code P0016, I also replaced the camshaft position sensor and that did not solve the problem. It seems to run well with good power and idle. Sounds a little clacking at idle but some mechanics and other owners say this is normal. Did you finally solve your problem, was it the camshaft actuator or was it the cam timing deviation? I have read on other sites that this problem can be caused by either one of those scenarios.
 
  
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Matrixxxx
Trainee


Joined: 13 Sep 2019
Posts: 57
Location: York


PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cant help with the chain issue, but I recently changed the thermostat, and am just about to change the starter motor on my 2009 GTS.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Porsche-Cayenne-GTS/04-WATER-Thermostat_Replacement/04-WATER-Thermostat_Replacement.htm

the site above is very good for "how to " information.

you can see the chain from the oil filler, not sure if there are any alignment marks?

you will need a new seal for the water pump, I didn't replace mine (pump) but it seemed quiet so left it. and the use of a vacuum coolant filler ( £25 off eBay) made the filling super quick, and no airlocks. I also got the pink coolant off eBay as well 10L for £16.99.

the only tricky bit is getting the stat out, but if you buy a new insert you can give it some force without worrying about damaging the insert which in from of the stat.
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7596
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ JSP

you need to get a tester on it and look at camshaft deviations .. it is possible to adjust the chain to get it back in spec if the readings are out .

off hand .. a camshaft sensor is just that .. you also have the wiring from that to the dme that might need checking .

A " clacking noise " that's a bit subjective as to who's listening but off hand they shouldn't make too much noise .. post a sound clip if possible .

I will say that on these i've often seen camshaft sensor fault codes with no running issues .. if you don't have a problem , no eml and no excessive cam deviations then i have to wonder if it's worth fixing the fault code .
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JSP
Newbie


Joined: 26 Nov 2019
Posts: 4



PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:31 pm    Post subject: P0016 Reply with quote

Thank you Matrixxxx and DeMort for your replies.

DeMort do you know if Harv ever solved the problem?

He was going to have someone check his timing and camshaft solenoids.

The engine is running well. I will check into your suggestions.

Thanks
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7596
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm afraid not .. i only see what's posted here most times and Harv has not posted in a couple of months.

Do you actually have any running issues or is it just a case of you looked and saw a fault code ?

It's only that i have seen this code before several times with no ill effect on the car ... chasing a fault and spending money needs to be done to fix an issue .. just a fault code is not an issue as such .

Check cam chain deviations and we can go from there Smile
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My Daughter's Crowdfunding has hit the target .

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She's not going until july 2020 though .



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Now At An Indy.
 
  
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JSP
Newbie


Joined: 26 Nov 2019
Posts: 4



PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no perceivable driveability issues, excellent power. Good engine oil level and temperatures. The idle appears to be normal just some light clacking sounds that I questioned a mechanic about. He said that they all sound that way and he commented that my car was idling smooth. ( However it does not sound as good at idle as my 78 Camaro 305 V8 did! ) He said those days are gone.

I agree with you that the first thing to do at this point is to check cam chain deviations and take it from there. If everything is in spec. then it is probably just a false fault code or a sensor wiring problem. I don't like driving with the CEL (MIL) on, in case a more urgent issue arises and I wind up not catching it in time before things get worse.

If this was a simpler and older and less expensive car it wouldn't bother me as much but at this point considering the money and time already put in the car and the complexity of the Turbo I don't want to see the check engine light on unless there is a genuine problem.

I guess I will have to find a mechanic who is familiar with this and have them perform the cam deviation and timing test as a start and go from there.

I will post the outcome when I find out.

Thanks deMort Thumb
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7596
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aghh okies that's slightly different from what i thought , i missed the bit about the light on , i speed read im afraid Sad .. you have an engine check light on ..

The ones i've seen have had a fault code but no light .

Basically the car is seeing a problem with this sensor if that's the only fault code and you have the light on because of it .

Cam deviations is what i'm thinking atm ....

Just to confirm .. you did replace the o/s/f cam sensor as thats bank one .. just checking here Smile

All Porsche cars and facing the crank pulley then B1 is left , B2 is right .
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My Daughter's Crowdfunding has hit the target .

Thank you all so Very much .

She's not going until july 2020 though .



Mechanic

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Now At An Indy.
 
  
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JSP
Newbie


Joined: 26 Nov 2019
Posts: 4



PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:13 am    Post subject: Code P0016 and check engine light on. Reply with quote

Hi deMort,

Yes I replaced the camshaft sensor on Bank 1, looking towards the engine from the bumper it's the left side. (Vehicle Passenger side in North America) It was very easy to do on this 2008 (957), I've read that it's difficult on the 955.

I don't notice any driveabilty issues, but I have not driven another same car to compare it to so my opinion is subjective.

Initially the check engine light and code was intermittent and took some time before lighting up again, now it comes back almost immediately after clearing it. The weather is colder now, so that lead me to suspect it could be the camshaft actuator solenoid getting sluggish.

Does the camshaft cover need to be removed on a 957 in order to change the camshaft solenoid? I have read that they can be swapped side to side to prove them. The plastic cover near the front of the cam cover is easy to see and remove and the connector is easy to access.

I do have an aftermarket used car warranty on the engine mechanical so I will call them to see if the diagnostics and work is covered by the warranty to check the cam timing and solenoids.

Thanks thumbsup
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7596
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P0016 fault code basically means the position of the inlet camshaft is incorrect to the seen position of the crankshaft .. outside of limits for whatever reason and the car flags a code to tell you this .

Reasons .. well the logical ones ..

Cam sensor faulty ..

Wiring for Cam sensor faulty

Cam chain stretched ..

Cam in an incorrect position possibly due to the vario cam incorrectly adjusting ...

This is the problem one as i would assume the car would flag a fault code if it thinks this is at fault .. not going to discount it though as what you have described with the cold making a difference then this is certainly possible .

I still think it would flag a fault code for this which it hasn't but worth checking .

NA cars and i see a code listed .. P0017 which is exhaust cam out of position .. we don't have that in our market .. if there is a sensor such as this then that would rule out Cam deviations as you should have both fault codes .

I would still like the deviations checked though as the above bit is only something i have read and know nothing about .

Good shout to say you are NA though ... i don't think we get many of you guys here .. i believe it's renlist you tend to use ?

Kinda honoured if you have come here after perhaps asking there .

I've never had the pleasure of changing the solenoid on one of these but i would certainly expect the cam cover will need removing ... i see no way of replacing it otherwise Smile

Check if its covered under warranty . if so then let them have the headache of diagnosing it Very Happy
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My Daughter's Crowdfunding has hit the target .

Thank you all so Very much .

She's not going until july 2020 though .



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Now At An Indy.
 
  
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