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997tt serious coolant leak. Back to trader or use warranty?

drabux

Well-known member
Joined
1 Oct 2014
Messages
409
Hi All,
I bought a 997tt nearly 3 months ago from a dealer in Sheffield (I live in Bath). It came with a RAC Gold warranty (maximum cover of £1k). The car has developed a big coolant leak and my local indy is pretty confident it is coming from the oil cooler/coolant heat exchanger.

It's an engine out job to fix the problem.

So, what do I do? I have just 5 days left on the RAC warranty which came with car, but it's limit is just £1k. Should I go there first or should I go back to the dealer to ask them to fix the problem. The car has done just 300 miles since I bought it.
Cheers!
 
Without knowing the details of the warranty I'd say that you probably need to bite the bullet and have it fixed locally. The dealer is unlikely to accept any responsibility as he has sold the car with a third party warranty.

The issue appears to be a poor warranty - a limit of £1000 is totally inadequate and you would have been wise to raise this with the dealer at the time and either buy the car with a different warranty arrangement or walk away.

I recently accompanied a fellow Porsche owner to see a part-ex for a different Porsche from a reputable specialist who stated "the warranty gives 12 months of unlimited claims subject to a maximum of £1000 per claim"

I replied "that's a joke for these cars"

Others may come along and suggest you take it up with the dealer.
Its your choice, but the issue is the totally inadequate warranty in my view which now means you accepted a contract of sale based on this warranty.
The dealer is not at fault in my view.

But other opinions may state otherwise.....
 
I totally agree with all that Cheshire 911 has said a £1000 max claim pay out is a joke IMHO and I would not have accepted that warranty if I were purchasing a 911 ,but I would contact the dealer and see what reaction you receive you have little to lose ,the laws have changed a lot regarding used car sales such as fit for purpose, was the fault on the car at the time of sale and of merchantable quality
good luck :thumb:
 
Cheers. This is the AA's interpretation of the law. This suggests that the dealer is responsible, no?

Between 30 days and 6 months

If a fault comes to light after 30 days but before 6 months you're entitled to a repair, replacement or refund.

It's assumed in law that the fault was present at the time of purchase unless the seller can prove otherwise.
Unless you've agreed otherwise, the seller (dealer) has only one opportunity to repair (or replace) the faulty vehicle after which, if they fail to repair it, you're entitled to a refund.
In the event of a refund following a failed attempt at repair during the first six months the seller may make a 'reasonable' adjustment to the amount refunded to take account of the use that you've had of the vehicle
 
If the RAC are happy to work with your local indy to cover some of the cost, then that's probably the better/quicker option than having the car transported to Sheffield. It will also help foster a good relationship with your local indy.
 
You could speak to the dealer to see what they are prepared to do as technically it is a Consumer Rights Act issue given it's within the timeframe. Although I thought the responsibiliity on a dealer fix/return was 3 months :dont know:

Trouble is where you live from the dealer and getting it back there. I bought a Mini for my daughter and the turbo blew up at just short of the 3 months point. I'd got 3rd party warranty but given the timeframe having spoken to the dealer who was good as gold we had the car receovered back to them and they fixed it without warranty claim.

Engine out job is not a 'big job' for an experienced Indy as it's part and parcel for most work. The parts however won't necessarily be cheap and combined with labour I suspect will take you over the £1k
 
drabux said:
Between 30 days and 6 months

If a fault comes to light after 30 days but before 6 months you're entitled to a repair, replacement or refund.

It's assumed in law that the fault was present at the time of purchase unless the seller can prove otherwise.

Unless you've agreed otherwise, the seller (dealer) has only one opportunity to repair (or replace) the faulty vehicle after which, if they fail to repair it, you're entitled to a refund.

quote]

In your position I'd ring the supplying dealer and tell them what has occurred. They'll be aware of their legal responsibility so should respond to your satisfaction.

Follow this up with an e-mail so that if the warranty company do get involved you have something to prove that you reported the fault to the supplying dealer within the 3 months warranty period.

I certainly wouldn't involve any third party repairer until after the dealer have said what they are prepared to contribute.

Good Luck.
 
Total cost is likely to be £1.5k I would think + anything else you decide to do while you are in there. My first point of contact would be to speak with the dealer. They may or may not be accommodating but you will not know until you make the call. As others have said the warranty is shite and I bet you'd still have hoops to jump through. If no luck with the dealer you may just have to suck it up and except it is part of owning/buying an old car. I know the new rules tend to side with the buyer and hopefully you can exercise this but really unless there were signs of the failure how would the dealer have even known it was there?
 
And here is the get-out-of-jail clause for the dealer in the legislation:
"It's assumed in law that the fault was present at the time of purchase unless the seller can prove otherwise. "

The car was water-tight when it was sold. No leaks. The fault was not present at the time of purchase.(Edit: If the car was inspected with a PPI and it did not show this leak, then there is proof the fault was not present at time of sale. The OP does not mention if he had the car inspected.)

Sorry to put a dampener on the enthusiasm. By all means try. If it was bore-scoring, he cannot prove the fault was not present at time of purchase because bore-scoring is gradual in onset and does not suddenly appear after purchase.

Water leak on the other hand? Can happen at any time in an acute fashion even if not present at time of purchase. It is easy therefore to avoid liability if the car was not leaking at purchase. I know people whose coolant hose has let go all of a sudden and dumped all the coolant in seconds. It happens. In a purchase, you expect a warranty o offer some cover for those sort of eventualities. This warranty does not. Joints deteriorate, they can start to leak at any time. Some have had the engine out and have the new pipes bonded or welded.

The law is an ass. You are welcome to try - but you might expend a lot of energy and cash and not get very far. The dealer can argue it was not present at time of purchase and claim it to be an Act of God for which he is not liable but for which he provides a warranty (Gold Cover) for such instances.

If the dealer refuses to be involved, then your option is to litigate. For £2k? Litigation might cost you upwards of £5k at minimum to recover £2k?

Sometimes it is the best option to draw a line in the sand, lick your wounds and stump up the cost of fixing it + anything else they find or you decide to do whilst its out on the floor, reflect and learn from it and move on and enjoy the car. This is an expensive gentlemans club and with the age of these cars, keeping them in tip-top conditions is always going to be challenging with both regular servicing costs and unexpected repairs from time-to-time.
 
Terry, I'm not sure this is the process in the event of a third party warranty claim when you mention:

"In your position I'd ring the supplying dealer and tell them what has occurred. They'll be aware of their legal responsibility so should respond to your satisfaction.

Follow this up with an e-mail so that if the warranty company do get involved you have something to prove that you reported the fault to the supplying dealer within the 3 months warranty period".


My limited understanding is that in the event of a claim, the policy holder has to contact the warranty company directly first, not the seller. As time is ticking by, perhaps the OP needs to contact the warranty company immediately. He is free of course to contact the seller after that notification as the claim was lodged during the validity of the warranty. I dont think reporting it first to the seller, allowing the warranty to lapse but feeling comfortable that you notified the seller about it before the lapse will wash with the warranty company. I could be wrong.......
 
I can't see how a wear and tear item like a coolant hose popping off is covered by warranty unless you have bought from an OPC or Reputable Indy with their own in house warranty like JZM, RSJ, 911V, RPM T etc :?:


If one hose is loose they may all be near end of life. May as well send to 9e or JZM etc and get them all pinned, welded whatever they recommend nowadays as its a very common issue on 996 and 997.1 turbos/GT3/GT2. Porsche used a crap glue. Improved on PCM 3 2008/2009 turbos/GT3/GT2 RS by using a better adhesive but still an issue. :thumbs:
 
I think this is the general direction of travel in my posts on this case.
Clinging to warranty claim (which as you say is probably not covered under the wear n tear clauses), dissecting consumer law to search for someone else to puck up the bill with a cliff edge looming for the warranty to lapse in a few days is probably not going to help in this instance.

The Turbo is known for blowing hoses requiring an engine out fix and expensive parts. The OP has been told it appears to be oil cooler issue - but still engine out. So even if the hoses are OK, he may be advised to pin/weld/bond new replacement hoses. I don't accept necessarily the glue at factory was bad. These cars are getting on age and its more likely to be age-related deterioration.

An engine out and re-fit is not a small job as someone seems to elude.
It must likely be 15hrs for removal and refit - perhaps an Indy can confirm book time? At £85/hr + VAT as a typical Indy rate in the home counties, that alone equates to £1275+VAT = £1530 inc VAT for that alone and then the cost of the fix - parts and labour.

The Mezger engine is tough, reliable and often described as 'bullet-proof' and it certainly is compared to non-Mezger engines in 996 and 997.1 NA cars.
But it is a high maintenance car in other respects.
 
cheshire911 said:
I think this is the general direction of travel in my posts on this case.
Clinging to warranty claim (which as you say is probably not covered under the wear n tear clauses), dissecting consumer law to search for someone else to puck up the bill with a cliff edge looming for the warranty to lapse in a few days is probably not going to help in this instance.

The Turbo is known for blowing hoses requiring an engine out fix and expensive parts. The OP has been told it appears to be oil cooler issue - but still engine out. So even if the hoses are OK, he may be advised to pin/weld/bond new replacement hoses. I don't accept necessarily the glue at factory was bad. These cars are getting on age and its more likely to be age-related deterioration.

An engine out and re-fit is not a small job as someone seems to elude.
It must likely be 15hrs for removal and refit - perhaps an Indy can confirm book time? At £85/hr + VAT as a typical Indy rate in the home counties, that alone equates to £1275+VAT = £1530 inc VAT for that alone and then the cost of the fix - parts and labour.

The Mezger engine is tough, reliable and often described as 'bullet-proof' and it certainly is compared to non-Mezger engines in 996 and 997.1 NA cars.
But it is a high maintenance car in other respects.

Yes sorry missed post about it being oil cooler. If my engine was out I'd be tempted to do a few bits like you. Water pump, coolant hoses, plugs and coil packs. Maybe clutch too :thumbs:
 
I would go back to the dealer and ask them to repair it. As others have said, the law is on your side, and the seller has to PROVE that the problem didn't exist at the time of sale. That will be very difficult, particularly if you have your local indy confirm that in their opinion whatever the fault is, was longstanding.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/19

The important section is (14) which as has been said, assumes that the problem was there at the time of purchase. Their probable defence (15(a)) says

(14) does not apply if"” (a) it is established that the goods did conform to the contract on that day.

Ultimately, they are going to find it difficult to PROVE that the problem wasn't there

Don't fear taking legal action. Any claim would almost certainly end up in the small claims court and the whole process is designed to help the claimant. Do make sure though that you keep evidence of every conversation (I would use email), as if it does go to court, every bit of evidence will help you to build your case.

in terms of warranties, I've never had an independent warranty as all feedback suggests that they try to exclude everything, and if this is ultimately wear and tear, then they will almost certainly exclude it.

I hope you get a positive response from the dealer, but as I say, the law is on your side - don't fear it.

Good luck
 
cheshire911 said:
My limited understanding is that in the event of a claim, the policy holder has to contact the warranty company directly first, not the seller. As time is ticking by, perhaps the OP needs to contact the warranty company immediately. He is free of course to contact the seller after that notification as the claim was lodged during the validity of the warranty. I dont think reporting it first to the seller, allowing the warranty to lapse but feeling comfortable that you notified the seller about it before the lapse will wash with the warranty company. I could be wrong.......

https://www.rac.co.uk/contact-us/warranty

states that the car should be taken to the supplying dealer or any VAT registered garage for them to diagnose the fault and call the warranty company.

To belt-and-brace it I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to inform both that a claim may be forthcoming. :thumb:
 

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