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adrian993
Monza


Joined: 01 Jul 2014
Posts: 163



PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:17 am    Post subject: does a lighter steering wheel provide more feedback? Reply with quote

I find the 964 has more feedback to the steering wheel.

Is any of this due to the actual weight of the heavy 993 wheel including airbag etc that numbs the steering feel down?

Has anyone gone from a regular wheel to a RS wheel and noted a better feedback? Is the 996 wheel lighter?

Thanks Wink Thumb worship
 
  
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jev911uk
Trainee


Joined: 06 Mar 2011
Posts: 51
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt steering wheel weight has much effect on steering feel.

Alignment however has a massive effect on steering feel and weight so it might just be that the 964 and 993 have different setups - have you had that checked?
 
  
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cableguy
Kyalami


Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 1980
Location: North Yorkshire


PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alloy wheel size and weight coupled with a fully functioning PAS rack will have the most impact on steering feel.
A lot of 993's run 18's which feel very different to a 964 on 16's or 17's...

Steering wheels are a personal preference, smaller diameter wheel = less movement to turn the road wheels etc.

C.
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Endoman
Barcelona


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 1368
Location: Bolton U.K.


PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are talking about a specific car rather than in general it could be down to the tie rods, tyres or suspension bushes.
The biggest difference between a 964 and a 993 is the rear suspension.
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Tobesetc
Albert Park


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 1557
Location: West London, UK


PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cableguy wrote:
Alloy wheel size and weight coupled with a fully functioning PAS rack will have the most impact on steering feel.
A lot of 993's run 18's which feel very different to a 964 on 16's or 17's...

Steering wheels are a personal preference, smaller diameter wheel = less movement to turn the road wheels etc.

C.


What he said. Weight (mass) of the steering wheel has close to zero impact. Diameter will impact the "moment" because the effective length of the lever has changed a bit. Not a lot.

Unsprung mass of wheels/brakes has a big impact, as does the state of the tyres. I've never found that wheel size makes a huge difference because the rolling diameter barely changes due to the tyres being lower profile on bigger wheels. (The Illuminati will tar & feather you for suggesting that their 17" wheels are not a perfect match for sandals with socks). The supposed "poor ride" of 18" wheels is most likely due to the tyres being lower profile, not the wheel diameter. IMHO Wink

So no - the mass of the steering wheel will not be the issue.
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Luddite
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 334
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adrian993, I am with Tobysetc, in that the weight of the steering wheel is unlikely to have any impact on the "feel" of the steering.

Somewhat off topic perhaps is the comment on road wheel choices which can REALLY affect the way a car both feels and handles, something I discovered some years back. I have discussed this elsewhere though perhaps worth a mention in relation to how a vehicle might "feel" or the differences between vehicles. which may not be down to the cars initial design, but perhaps down to over enthusiastic modification to achieve a certain LOOK as being a priority, given some vehicles these days tend to look more like something out of the kids cartoon CARS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOh4LmkYCB0

Jeez I can feel the heat already Floor
 
  
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7106
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO the rim thickness and padding would have an effect... a bit like wearing a pair of gloves when driving, less information/feel gets through the rim.

I imagine the 'busy-ness' of the wheel may have been deliberately reduced in the 993 vs 964 to improve perceived refinement of the newer car.
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Roro
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 6330



PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using a Cup steering wheel on my GT3 for a few years now. A few other GT3 owners on here have the same / similar wheel. Reducing the rotating mass on a steering wheel does definitely have a positive effect on the way that the car feels on turns in. I love this wheel, wouldn't go back to stock unless I had to for some reason. Not a 993 owner, but I thought this might be of interest anyway. They're not particularly expensive, worth trying out if you don't like you can always flog on here or eBay
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nickjonesn4
Montreal


Joined: 10 Aug 2017
Posts: 525
Location: Edinburgh


PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The front end of a 2WD 964 feels considerably lighter than a 2WD 993 and the feedback through the wheel reflects that IMO with the 964 wheel pretty much constantly moving in your hands.
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wozy
Österreich


Joined: 06 Feb 2013
Posts: 889
Location: Worcestershire


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 993 does have less feel than a 964 .... and some prefer it.

I personally think the heavy airbag wheel does take away a lot of feel, one of the nicest upgrades I did to my 993 was fit the RS wheel and to me at least it now reminds me a lot more of my old 964. It’s a great upgrade imo
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Porsche Cars of Great Britain launched the 993 in the UK in early December 1993 registering 12 x UK cars on the 6th & 7th of that month; mine is one of them.

993 C2. MBM. C4 mounts, RSRs, RS Short shifter. RS steering wheel. FSDs & M033s
Previous 2.7S, 3.2, 964 and 968CS
 
  
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nickjonesn4
Montreal


Joined: 10 Aug 2017
Posts: 525
Location: Edinburgh


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wozy wrote:
The 993 does have less feel than a 964 .... and some prefer it.

I personally think the heavy airbag wheel does take away a lot of feel, one of the nicest upgrades I did to my 993 was fit the RS wheel and to me at least it now reminds me a lot more of my old 964. It’s a great upgrade imo


Its all relative. My brother in law couldn't get his head round the wheel moving in his hands but the car tracking in a straight line when he drove my car the other week!
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Luddite
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 334
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never studied physics but very much doubt the difference in rotating mass between two different steering wheels as might be fitted to a Porsche either as original equipment or as a recognised after market add-on would take more or less effort to operate the steering unless there was a difference in diameter ..?

As for "feel" well I have done some of that.. and I do not doubt for a second that my snug fitting furry steering wheel cover slipped over a genuine Porsche 911 RS wheel, would be entirely in keeping with my dangling dice, but would the handling of the Porsche feel different...hmm..? (-:

Customisation is an interesting pastime, it appeals to many folk in many different ways, keeps a large part of the economy turning over and requires a high degree in man maths to adopt some of the more ...err...adventurous must-have components that have evolved over time BUT I suspect it can be a relatively simple matter to over-do it and spend plenty of cash in the process, and in many cases I suspect the eventual outcome would confound any well considered application of cost benefit analysis...? (-:

Over-do.... is I suspect when you introduce some form of imbalance to a well tuned orchestra of parts, and Porsche certainly knew how to play my kind of music during my time of ownership. I spent much of my youth creating imbalance in many m/cycles fitting overly high lift cams, overly high compression pistons, exhaust systems with next to zero silencing/back pressure and then moved on to do something similar to unsuspecting motorcars... Yup spent a lot of time money and effort creating imbalance in what started out as reasonably well designed machinery of the time and enjoyed passing time discussing the next better than ORIGINAL improvement, which was just bound to work out well.. Perhaps more in my mind than in reality..(-:

Never drove a 964, though did spend a day driving a 993 at it`s launch, a time when I owned a non-sport 911 SC and boy was I impressed with the considerably improved power and road holding, it was a revelation indeed, and as such FELT very different to that which I had become used to after many years of Porsche ownership. I did not like that I could see nothing of the 993`s exterior while looking forward and only in recent months did I read that Mr Porsche thought likewise when he first sat in the 993.. It was a long time ago, and while the steering of the 993 was in no way dead, it did not FEEL quite as alive as that of my then circa 10 year old 80k ish mile non-sport SC, all be it shod with supposedly suspect rubber, but the then new 993 seemed to be a natural evolution perhaps matching trends and expectations of modern motoring, a process which no doubt carried on through all subsequent model changes, all be it the designers no doubt constrained to some degree by a marketing dept requiring the engine to be a flat six and situated in what some engineers might determine as the wrong place relative to the gearbox, but then I guess Porsche learned much after the creation of 928 ass a "911" replacement.. A wonderful machine but just too different perhaps..?

Just rambling on in type.. Smile
 
  
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cableguy
Kyalami


Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 1980
Location: North Yorkshire


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had an RS Wheel in my 993S and a standard 4 Spoke wheel and now a 996 3 Spoke Wheel in my current 993. Other than feel (touch) and the fact I can see the dials more clearly through the 3 Spoke, I don't feel any discernible difference.

C.
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Tobesetc
Albert Park


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 1557
Location: West London, UK


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luddite wrote:
I never studied physics but very much doubt the difference in rotating mass between two different steering wheels as might be fitted to a Porsche either as original equipment or as a recognized after market add-on would take more or less effort to operate the steering unless there was a difference in diameter ..?


Agreed, there's no chance the rotating mass ("weight" as incorrectly referred to, elsewhere) has a significant impact. Diameter, very much yes. Thickness, yes (for "feel"). Material, yes for feel. But mass, barely detectable - especially given that the additional mass of the airbag is right in the middle at the place where physics shows it's impact is least. But, I fully appreciate the RS type wheels will "feel" better - just not because of the mass Wink

That said - would be interesting to know the additional force to turn an airbag wheel over an RS. Virtually nothing, is my guess.

Question
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wozy
Österreich


Joined: 06 Feb 2013
Posts: 889
Location: Worcestershire


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must admit to not reading through all of the replies, but it was Adrian Crawford who initially told me it did for him at least make a difference and I changed mine finally some five years later (only because after 125000 miles the original had become super smooth and I’ve a dodgy grip on my left hand) and have to agree with him.

Maybe I just don’t hold the steering wheel as tight as others, but I definitely feel there’s more delicacy to it. It not so much movement left and right. more movement up and down...... I can only state what I’ve found .... and it’s not defending the money I spent on it either, it was a freebie.

When I got the car back from having it fitted I was a little unimpressed as it’s slighty further away from the stalks (more toward the driver)..... and
slightly smaller I believe, however now id not be without it.

Horses for courses I suppose.
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Porsche Cars of Great Britain launched the 993 in the UK in early December 1993 registering 12 x UK cars on the 6th & 7th of that month; mine is one of them.

993 C2. MBM. C4 mounts, RSRs, RS Short shifter. RS steering wheel. FSDs & M033s
Previous 2.7S, 3.2, 964 and 968CS
 
  
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gunner
Hockenheim


Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 728
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No science to back it up but I doubt the weight makes much difference. Compare the wheel weight to the rest of the components any movement has already travelled through (and the friction involved between each) and it surely can't make much difference.

I'm sure the material, diameter, thickness etc can feel different though and it's hard to isolate one from another.
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wozy
Österreich


Joined: 06 Feb 2013
Posts: 889
Location: Worcestershire


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gunner wrote:
No science to back it up but I doubt the weight makes much difference. Compare the wheel weight to the rest of the components any movement has already travelled through (and the friction involved between each) and it surely can't make much difference.

I'm sure the material, diameter, thickness etc can feel different though and it's hard to isolate one from another.


Well we can argue all day on this, but I’ve owned a 964 C2 (pre airbag) and I own a 993 C2 and I’ve had both wheels on the 993 and the RS one imo makes the steering feel far more like that of the 964 ..... a car I disliked but preferred it’s steering feel as it communicated so well ..... and that now is how my 993 feels ....... I guess you just have to try it to believe it.
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Porsche Cars of Great Britain launched the 993 in the UK in early December 1993 registering 12 x UK cars on the 6th & 7th of that month; mine is one of them.

993 C2. MBM. C4 mounts, RSRs, RS Short shifter. RS steering wheel. FSDs & M033s
Previous 2.7S, 3.2, 964 and 968CS
 
  
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gunner
Hockenheim


Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 728
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wozy wrote:

Well we can argue all day on this, but I’ve owned a 964 C2 (pre airbag) and I own a 993 C2 and I’ve had both wheels on the 993 and the RS one imo makes the steering feel far more like that of the 964 ..... a car I disliked but preferred it’s steering feel as it communicated so well ..... and that now is how my 993 feels ....... I guess you just have to try it to believe it.


Not arguing with you that it feels different (that would be silly), just saying I don't think it's the weight that makes the difference. The two wheels are of different construction and materials (and maybe diameter and thickness?) so I'm sure will transmit vibration etc differently.
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