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NLW73
Imola


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 843
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:12 am    Post subject: anyone done the jump from 996 GT3 to 997 GT3? Reply with quote

any thoughts and comments?

regrets even? did you go back?

ta, NW
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Roro
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colin (Disco) did, I'm sure he'll be along shortly Smile

Also a few other 996 GT3 owners have added a 997 GT3, but don't know anyone else that has replaced one with the other except for Disco
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Slippydiff
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, done it twice (Gen 1 997 GT3), and on both occasions have gone back to a Mk1 996. Read into that what you will ...

The 997 is a truly awesome car with a superb engine that's far, far superior to the Mk1 996 unit, but for road use the 997 chassis it just too accomplished to have fun with at safe/legal speeds.

My personal beef with the 997 GT3 is the gearbox/shift on the Gen 1 cars, it was judged by many journalists to be too heavy, baulky and out of sorts with the other control weights. I hated the shifts on both my cars, and out of 12-14 Gen 1 997 GT3's/RS's I've driven, only 3 have had truly decent gearshifts.

Rightly or wrongly I suspect that a large part of the problem is the short throw, and as a result "less than skilled drivers" are rushing the shifts and damaging the synchros/baulk rings, this in turn makes the shift more baulky and the same less than skilled drivers start to force the lever into gear, this is the start of a nasty vicious circle that ultimately ruins the synchros/baulk rings and the gearshift quality.

The shift input levers on the side of the 996 box are longer and thus afford easier shifts as a result of improved leverage (but slower changes). A well maintained, unabused stock 996 gearshift is a thing of joy to use.

Many accuse the 996 interior of being low-rent, cheap and made from poor quality materials, all could be said to be true, but the 996 cockpit is a far more intimate place than that of the 997, and from that perspective feels more like an air cooled car than any other watercooled model Porsche have produced.

Hope that helps !
 
  
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Disco
Estoril


Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3599
Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went from 996.2 GT3 to 997.2 GT3 (5.5 years in the 996 and almost 6 so far in the 997, so long term rather than chopping and changing). I don't feel an urge to go back as such, but I do miss the older car and if it were sensible for me to have one of each I probably would...

The short version is that the 997.2 is a much better road car - especially in more or less unmodified form.

The first topic is of course the engine and there is context here as the 3.6 in the 997.1 is much more like the 996 than the later 3.8 in the gen 2. The 3.8 has a much smoother torque curve and (particularly with the sport button on) pulls much better out of the low to mid range. On the road that makes it much more enjoyable to drive in normal use as well as when pressing on (as opposed to when going loud, as once you reach the upper part of the rev range they then become very similar). On track or winding roads that translates most to not requiring 3-2 downshifts where the spikier 3.6 really does call for them. You still can if you feel like it of course, but there isn't the need to kick it down the extra cog to avoid falling off of the higher cam profile.

Next it is probably worth a quick mention to the diff. The 996 diff is actually rather more aggressive, which on track is good but on the road - well - lets just say that it tries harder to stall the car when you reverse around corners or manoeuvre in carparks and generally makes things a little more cumbersome at low speeds. On a 997.1 this is a weakness readily felt when powering out of corners and putting the same lockup spec diff as the 996 into them is thus fairly common (either with the cup car parts or aftermarket from someone like guard). Less noticeable on the 997.2 in road driving with the PSM on, but while PSM is not a problem on the road you really do have to turn it and the traction off on track or it sort of works against you (particularly if you really attack your trail braking I found that it utterly obliterates the rear brakes. Hitting the off button and managing the weight transfer yourself as you would in a 996 is both more satisfying and better for your consumable costs).

As for the PASM dampers - they are better on the road for normal use, but they certainly aren't perfect and while better than the stock passive Bilsteins on a 996 : it is understandable why a fair few people bin them for a better passive setup or fit an aftermarket suspension control unit. Occasionally when going very quick they do feel like they have ran out of ideas and aren't doing what they should (which I've encountered in particular at Zandvoort and the 'ring). You can of course drive around those margin cases but there is an instinctive desire to be on a passive 996 at the time.

For handling in general you have to remember that if you are prepared to modify the suspension you can make any GT3 handle pretty much the same, however out of the box the 997.2 has much better turn in, feels like it has more mechanical grip all around and is more stable under heavy braking. Earlier cars (especially the 996) default to loads of understeer and are a bit wayward if you stand them on the nose, which is why everyone who buys one always ends up sending it to a decent geo shop and then raving about transformation. You don't have to do that with the 997.2 until you are doing track speeds (though that said, if you put a road friendly track geo on it like mine has then the mechanical grip is hilarious for road driving, particularly the turn in. You need to swap out suspension components to make a 996 similar).

Small honourable mention to the 997.2 having tyre pressure monitoring as standard. Handy on track, but also on the road. I once had a slow leak that without TPMS would have seen me having to bin a tyre - it is worth having. Not standard on the 997.1 though (it was optional, rarely selected and would need loom modifications to retrofit so not really viable).

Interior. 996 is primitive but in a charming and involving way and I wouldn't argue with anyone who said that they preferred it (especially with the centre console delete - the optional console in a 996 is a tiny bit intrusive if you are anywhere above average height). However, the 997 has better ergonomics and the PCM system in the 997.2 is worth having (even the most recent maps are a bit out of date now, but the nav is viable and the hands free bluetooth phone integration decent enough and the iPod/USB music integration is very nice on a long continent crushing drive). Seats? The 996 buckets are the best, but only by a small margin from the 997.2 folding buckets. The fixed buckets in the 997.1 (which could also be had on the 997.2 as an option) are narrow (not just the base, but also the shoulders) and fit far fewer people comfortably.

That'll do for a start I think... Thumb
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NXI20
Approved Trader


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3229
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^
What Disco says is pretty much on the money. As I have both 996.2 & 997.2 GT3s & jump between them on a daily basis, the comfort level differences between them is probably a bit overstated; neither of them is a particularly cosseting experience. Of course, my 996 is about as far from standard as you will find this side of a Cup car but even so, I find my biggest sigh of relief is moving from the 997 back to the 996 due to the lack of a centre console. After a few hours in the 997 it really begins to hurt my left leg just below the knee. As others don't have this problem, I'm beginning to think it might be a consequence of having the Carrera GT fixed buckets in the 997.

The 997 shows up the amount of development the GT3 had in a few years and it is a far more accomplished platform as a result. As far as driver involvement & sheer driving pleasure, that's a much more difficult one to call. I do love my 996 for that but it's nice to have both, even if the 997 delivers its gifts a little too easily for me Smile
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NLW73
Imola


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 843
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks fellas and you all make very good points. I have it in my mind that a gen 1 997 will be a bit softer on the road than the 996 and maybe a bit more liveable

I am going to test drive a few 997 gen 1 GT3s and see how I get on.

what I might do is change the 996 Brillstein's for some KW3 club sports as they might be a bit better? what do you think?

that way I might be able to feel like its a better car for the road and get it set up again at somewhere like center gravity too.
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Senoj
Zolder


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NLW73 wrote:
thanks fellas and you all make very good points. I have it in my mind that a gen 1 997 will be a bit softer on the road than the 996 and maybe a bit more liveable

I am going to test drive a few 997 gen 1 GT3s and see how I get on.

what I might do is change the 996 Brillstein's for some KW3 club sports as they might be a bit better? what do you think?

that way I might be able to feel like its a better car for the road and get it set up again at somewhere like center gravity too.


Just get softer springs fot the bilstiens? DSC box on the 997 pasm makes a very good road car. Gen 1 car would need a yaw sensor added though i think.
 
  
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Pip1968
Suzuka


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1061
Location: Blighty


PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Continue to live the dream Nick. It is shame that you are not still just down the road from me as I would be interested to drive yours whilst you try mine. Ours may be similar in set but I get the feeling that they are not.

When 9e put a set of Ohlin (Road & Track) on (the refurbished KW Competitions are still sat in the box Rolling Eyes ), I asked them to set the car up like a GT3 RS and so there is plenty of bouncing around the road whilst feeling every change in tarmac. Exhilarating, adrenaline producing and raw enough to keep you focussed on the enjoyment of a beautiful sports car. Radio not required Wink . I think people like me are possibly in a minority amongst GT3 drivers probably less so those in a RS. I think people think GT3 is a road going track car but er more towards the road part but let's face it you cannot have both without it lacking in some aspects of its 'day job'. It is clearly not what everyone wants but surely if you want comfort and 'mod cons' you have your daily drive. Old age kicking in perhaps.... and growing up Laughing

Are you sure it is not just boredom Nick. How long have you had the GT3 now? Longer than the CSL - ? You have returned her back to top specification and now are lost without anything further to do perhaps - ?

Best of luck anyway Nick and I will have to pop up for a spin with you as the countryside is rather nice your way.

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NXI20
Approved Trader


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3229
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! I am contemplating taking a year off from trackdays; after next Monday at the 'ring I will have done 215 trackdays in the old girl & tracking has kind of got a bit stale of late. Doing something completely different for a year might be the solution...

It will be 10 years come February that I've had the dear old thing. It's true that there's been very little development done this year & there's not a lot left I'd want to change now anyway.

I have plans for developing the GT2 further over the winter so I will be concentrating my efforts there for now.
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Need Alcon discs or Pagid pads? https://uber9s.com

2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
1995 993 GT2 recreation in Polar Silver
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Pip1968
Suzuka


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1061
Location: Blighty


PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually my post was for Nick - NLW73 not you NXI20 but it is still a shame to hear. Our resident expert goes into semi retirement but like most boxers you will be back Wink

Too many Nicks on 911UK Laughing

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NLW73
Imola


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 843
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Pip for that and the chats on whats app.

yes getting old but also fancied a bit of change on the car. so maybe new suspension and set up would be as good as change

I am TDing a 997 GT3 on sat so will see if its a quantum leap or not.
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Diggermeister
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 26 May 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NLW73 wrote:
I am TDing a 997 GT3 on sat so will see if its a quantum leap or not.
Will be very interested to hear your opinions. I think most of us are in a similar situation, insomuch as, money no object, we'd have one of each GT car from 996 to 991! There's not really a 'wrong answer' in there, as much as some very, very different options.
 
  
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FRP
Suzuka


Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 1091
Location: Middlesex


PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are fantastic

The time taken to post replies with in depth knowledge and information. This is what I love about this forum.

I find it a breath of fresh air and enjoy reading about other drivers / owners exposure to cars, issues, or just plain opinions.
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Daniel
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 02 Feb 2005
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Location: Not where I want to be!

2000 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk1

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
Ha! I am contemplating taking a year off from trackdays; after next Monday at the 'ring I will have done 215 trackdays in the old girl & tracking has kind of got a bit stale of late. Doing something completely different for a year might be the solution...


Maybe GT3 driver coaching? - still involved, but advising set up's and coaching on track?
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Pip1968
Suzuka


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop hijacking Daniel Wink

I am hoping to see an extensive write up following NLW73's test drive of the 997 (a Mk II 3.8L I believe) in the shadow of a possibly slightly twitchy 996. To be honest I am wondering how easy or difficult it is to get a test drive in what is probably a highly polished display item at a dealers. There was a lovely grey/red 997 GT3 RS at Tonbridge Five Oak Green OPC that was sat in the middle of the dealers I would have happily taken out.

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NLW73
Imola


Joined: 27 May 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sadly not a gen 2 pip. mk1 997.

felt a little bit quicker than mine but not enough to warrant the extra ££ for the change. bit more compliant on the road and a little bit softer. more modern cabin but that was about it really.

I would miss the liveliness of the 996 I think too much and the noises.
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Diggermeister
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 26 May 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NLW73 wrote:
felt a little bit quicker than mine but not enough to warrant the extra ££ for the change.
Unless I'm mistaken, the values of 996 vs. 997.1 GT3s, like-for-like on mileage and condition, the 6 is nearly as much as the 7, certainly the 6.1?

As you say, different cars, but I'd say the market values the 6 strongly.
 
  
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FZP
Österreich


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
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Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FRP wrote:
You guys are fantastic

The time taken to post replies with in depth knowledge and information. This is what I love about this forum.

I find it a breath of fresh air and enjoy reading about other drivers / owners exposure to cars, issues, or just plain opinions.

Agree I went onto the PH forum on the weekend for the first time in ages. frustrated frustrated frustrated
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Disco
Estoril


Joined: 13 May 2008
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Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggermeister wrote:
NLW73 wrote:
felt a little bit quicker than mine but not enough to warrant the extra ££ for the change.
Unless I'm mistaken, the values of 996 vs. 997.1 GT3s, like-for-like on mileage and condition, the 6 is nearly as much as the 7, certainly the 6.1?

As you say, different cars, but I'd say the market values the 6 strongly.


That is one way of looking at it. Another is that they have both now reached the point at which age becomes irrelevant to value and consider that both the production total and the number that came into the UK for the 996.2 and 997.1 were almost identical. In which case, they actually ought to coalesce to on or about the same value. Thumb

[And if you look at it in those terms, the other take away is that at some point in the future the 996.1 should overtake the values of both of them]
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Diggermeister
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 26 May 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of get your logic Disco. I guess you also have to factor in the theoretical (assuming you can actually get your name on the dealer list to put a deposit down) cost of a brand new equivalent GT3.

My take is that 997 and older GT and RS - to any degree - are cars that money simply cannot buy the equivalent of, new today, full stop.
 
  
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