Welcome to 911UK
The only place for Porsche, 911uk is the definitive enthusiast and resource site for the Porsche 911.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so join up today for full access to the site and benefit from latest member offers.

Porsche Classifieds
Porsche Buyers Guides
Sell Your Porsche on 911uk
Create a Free Classified Advert
Search Ads
Classified Adverts FAQ
Trade Classified Information
Buyer & Seller Fraud Protection
Consumer Rights Act
Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI)
Porsche Car Sourcing
Porsche Cars Wanted
Official Porsche Centre Reviews
Model
Stock
Porsche 911
991 : 2011- 24
997 : 2004- 90
996 : 1997-2005 41
993 : 1993-1998 6
964 : 1989-1993 3
Carrera 3.2 : 1983-1989 0
Carrera SC : 1977-1983 2
930 Turbo : 1975-1989 0
Early 911 : 1964-1977 3
Porsche Other Models
Classic : 1950-1965 0
Boxster : 1997- 15
Cayman : 2005- 11
Cayenne : 2003- 6
Macan : 2014- 0
Panamera : 2009- 1
912-914-924-928-944-968 0
959 - CarreraGT - RaceCar 1
Car Parts For Sale & Wanted
Other Items For Sale & Wanted
Wheels Tyres For Sale & Wanted
Number Plates For Sale Wanted

Porsche Services
Porsche Body Shop Repair
Paint Protection & Wrapping
Porsche Classic Insurance
Porsche Classic Parts
Porsche Classic Restoration
Porsche Design Collection
Porsche Engine Gearbox Rebuild
Porsche Heritage & History
Porsche News
Porsche Picture Gallery
Win a New Porsche 911

Porsche Parts
Body Parts, Body Styling
Brakes, Clearance
Electrical, Exhausts
Engine Cooling, Engine Electrical
Engine Rebuild, Heating Cooling
Interior Incar, Lighting
Rubber Seals, Service Parts
Steering, Suspension
Transmission, Workshop Tools
Early 911, 911 - 930, 928 - 968
964 - 993, 996 - 997, Boxster
Cayman, Cayenne, Panamera

Porsche Model Range
911 [991] 2011-Current
Porsche 911 [991]
911 [997] 2004-Current
Porsche 911 [997]
911 [GT] GT1-GT2-GT3
Porsche 911 [GT]
911 [996] 1997-2005
Porsche 911 [996]
911 [993] 1993-1998
Porsche 911 [993]
911 [RS] RS-RSR
Porsche 911 [RS]
911 [964] 1989-1993
Porsche 911 [964]
911 3.2 1983-1989
Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera
911 SC 1977-1983
Porsche 911 SC
911 [Early] 1964-1977
Porsche 911 [Early]
Boxster & Cayman
Porsche Boxster & Cayman
Cayenne & Panamera
Porsche Cayenne & Panamera

911uk Site Partners

Post new topic   Reply to topic
Author Message
keendean
Silverstone


Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 122
Location: Cambs


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Mileage and Private Sale/Pricing Reply with quote

I've owned a 997.1 before, so want to try and get in to a Gen2 car if I can stretch. I have seen a nice car with 68k miles on the clock. This is not ideal, and my market to sell if I ever had to would be very limited and trade would knock 5k off of my private price day one.

What is people's opinions on higher mileage cars?

It won't be a garage queen, so the miles will increase. I think its key to get the car for a close as to trade price from day one, to reduce the depreciation. I'm presuming private cars even with OPC warranty should be cheaper than trade/retail?

The car is a 2009 Targa 4S with 68k miles, up for 40K. Trade this is worth 35K. Its hard to price and judge as there are few with such miles on. Ideas on price?
Its on PH currently. It has a OPC warranty till 2019. The car looks amazing, and has an nice spec, no sports seats, but PDK and a PSE. Its due a major service, and the PDK service if I'm right.

Or I am thinking 5k more loan and get one with half the miles from a trader, horses for courses I guess. In a dilemma, as I want a Gen 2, and getting a higher mileage car may be my only course of action, as prices seem to be very strong. I just don't want to be stuck completely in a few years time with an unsellable car. Its a trade off of what I can afford, and not worrying about all my savings in a car, that if I had to shift for whatever reason, work wise or illness, stuck with a car that the trade may not even want. As miles would then possibly be north of 70K.
I'm looking for some advice, its a lot of money, and I don't want to be ruled by my heart, especially with the impending doom of the B r e.....
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 14489
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting set of questions and I'm sure you'll get lots of differing responses.

I'll kick off with my thoughts.

My personal research shows that 7.5k per annum seems to be the average that a water-cooled 911 will have done between 3 and 10 years old so an 09 car with 68k miles is right on the average.

Going forward however I think you're right to consider how desirable the car will be with more miles on it. On a modern car 90k+ will seem high and will be approaching that psychological 100k !!! that is a significant barrier to most UK buyers.

Regarding trade / private / dealer pricing you can't have it all ways. Everyone wants to negotiate the best deal they can but it's a fact of life that there will always be a difference between the three.

Generally I've always followed the principle that trade + 10% = the right private price and that trade + 20% is what I'd expect to pay from a dealer.

In Porsche world this principle can easily be skewed as many private buyers expect to get near retail for their car and particularly good cars can command much higher premiums if retailed by a recognised specialist.

If a private seller has a transferrable OPC warranty on their car it should make it more desirable than one that hasn't and should be worth the cost of the warranty more i.e about £1k. That said it could easily be argued by the seller that because it has a warranty it must be in pretty good mechanical condition and therefore be worth more than any otherwise similar car on the private market.

Lots of people buying privately expect a bargain - which is fine - but it really sticks in my craw that some expect to pay no more than trade money. I'm 'old school' and think it's fairest if both the seller and the buyer get something out of doing a private deal i.e the seller gets 10% more than they would from a trade-in and the buyer gets 10% off retail.

Happy Hunting. Thumb
_________________
2007 Guards Red 997 Turbo Tiptronic
ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
keendean
Silverstone


Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 122
Location: Cambs


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks T8 for the comprehensive reply.

The problem could arise if you pay more privately than trade for a car that only trade will buy, then in affect you have over paid. As the car worth the next day is worth 10% less. A car without high miles I agree, but one that appeals to such a limited market is a risk. I do agree there does need to be some flex between the buyer and the seller, that I think depends on the car in question.

Also if paying cash for a car, surely the seller has better buying power and negotiable skills?
And, it does worry me what a Gen2 would be worth closing on 80-90K miles. Even the reputable dealers I doubt buy cars with 60K plus miles.

Only the right price would put my mind at rest.. There are not any Gen2 cars I can see that have 70K+ miles, so its hard to predict what the market will do, and how difficult the car will be to sell in the future with higher miles.

Its a tricky decision, and you buy 911's from the heart, but I'd like to buy without looking at the odometer on every drive:)
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Windy101
Silverstone


Joined: 05 Jun 2015
Posts: 138



PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must admit I agree with T8.

Why would a seller go to the bother of selling privately, with the extra associated hassle and risk, to achieve trade price.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 14489
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Mileage and Private Sale/Pricing Reply with quote

keendean wrote:


The car is a 2009 Targa 4S with 68k miles, up for 40K. Trade this is worth 35K. Its hard to price and judge as there are few with such miles on. Ideas on price?

Its on PH currently. It has a OPC warranty till 2019. The car looks amazing, and has an nice spec, no sports seats, but PDK and a PSE. Its due a major service, and the PDK service if I'm right.



That seems an excellent price to me for a Gen 2 car. Most Gen 1 cars are up for that sort of money.

NB: As a comparison there's a 2009 Targa 4S PDK with 70k miles at an OPC up for £48k.

I know which I'd go for.
_________________
2007 Guards Red 997 Turbo Tiptronic
ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
keendean
Silverstone


Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 122
Location: Cambs


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I’m not disagreeing, there should be some flex to ensure it’s an incentive for both parties. But, the car I’m looking at has more miles than I would like, so it appeals to a smaller market. My main point is, buying a 997 with 70k miles on it. Some 911’s are washed more than driven, so 70k miles could be deemed above average for a 09 plate 911. When looking to value a car with 60k+ miles, it’s difficult as the majority of cars for sale are sub 50k.

If someone had a car that they were offering to trade, of course I’d be willing to pay above trade, and find a deal that works to the advantage of both parties. I can see why people do sell to the trade as it negates a of possible noise from the public.

Last edited by keendean on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
keendean
Silverstone


Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 122
Location: Cambs


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Mileage and Private Sale/Pricing Reply with quote

[/quote]

That seems an excellent price to me for a Gen 2 car. Most Gen 1 cars are up for that sort of money.

NB: As a comparison there's a 2009 Targa 4S PDK with 70k miles at an OPC up for £48k.

I know which I'd go for.[/quote]

There was a Targa 4S for sale last week, 60k miles for 43K. So prices vary massively on higher mileage cars.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 14489
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confused

If you think this one would be worth £35k trade and it seems like it would retail at c£45k then surely £40k is the middle ground you'd expect to pay in a private sale.

I certainly doubt that the £5k extra you spoke of in your first post would get you a low mileage example from an OPC.

ps. Picking up on a point you made about the seller then having cash to buy their next car. I'm pretty sure these days that dealers would prefer people not to buy in cash as they actually make extra money by arranging finance for customers.
_________________
2007 Guards Red 997 Turbo Tiptronic
ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
rabbitstew
Montreal


Joined: 21 Aug 2015
Posts: 624



PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is tough decision but depends on what you can afford and how long you intend to keep the car.

When I was looking for my 997 turbo, ideally I wanted one with around 40k max miles. In the end one came up locally, with full history, had just had £8k of work spent on it, only had 2 owners from new, was nearly the spec I wanted, but had 69k miles on the clock. I ummed and arrhhhed for about an hour before snapping it up.

I use it as a daily and do 14k miles a year, and my concern was that after a couple of years it would be approaching the 100k mark and thus be worthless.

But here we are, 2 years later its now on 94k and im still driving it. Had I not purchased it, I could well have been still sitting here waiting for the right car, rather than enjoying driving it. Ive no intentions of selling it any time soon so wont know how much ive "lost" until I do so.
_________________
2008 997.1 Turbo Manual
2000 Ducati 996
1999 Yamaha R1
1994 Kawasaki ZXR750L2
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
keendean
Silverstone


Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 122
Location: Cambs


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
Confused

If you think this one would be worth £35k trade and it seems like it would retail at c£45k then surely £40k is the middle ground you'd expect to pay in a private sale.

I certainly doubt that the £5k extra you spoke of in your first post would get you a low mileage example from an OPC.

ps. Picking up on a point you made about the seller then having cash to buy their next car. I'm pretty sure these days that dealers would prefer people not to buy in cash as they actually make extra money by arranging finance for customers.



I think non OPC if they were willing to buy at that miles, would be circa 40k.
As the one sold the other day non OPC trade/retail was 43k with 60k miles, I may be wrong, this is from memory, I'll dig the advert out.

If I buy from a non OPC, 45k can buy a Gen 2 car. It does not have to be a Targa.

Yes, you are right thinking on, an over sight on my part regarding the garage making money on the finance.

Smile

Last edited by keendean on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
keendean
Silverstone


Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 122
Location: Cambs


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rabbitstew wrote:
It is tough decision but depends on what you can afford and how long you intend to keep the car.

When I was looking for my 997 turbo, ideally I wanted one with around 40k max miles. In the end one came up locally, with full history, had just had £8k of work spent on it, only had 2 owners from new, was nearly the spec I wanted, but had 69k miles on the clock. I ummed and arrhhhed for about an hour before snapping it up.

I use it as a daily and do 14k miles a year, and my concern was that after a couple of years it would be approaching the 100k mark and thus be worthless.

But here we are, 2 years later its now on 94k and im still driving it. Had I not purchased it, I could well have been still sitting here waiting for the right car, rather than enjoying driving it. Ive no intentions of selling it any time soon so wont know how much ive "lost" until I do so.


Amazing. All being well, I'd keep the car a long time. This car has if I was to buy it, four previous owners. I know what you mean in terms of just enjoying the car, rather than checking the market constantly. Its like a fever, so when I buy a car, at least I'll have lots of free time. Glad you're enjoying your car, and gives me something to think about. Thanks
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Magic919
Imola


Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 818
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd avoid the Targa unless you really must have one and look for the best one you can afford. Miles might be a concern, but higher miles Gen 2s have sold in the past even if there are none for sale now.

Spec and condition will make a difference, so a quick glance at age and price may not tell the full story. A PDK car with PSE is good enough start.

You have to start to expect bigger bills now they are getting older with more miles. I've just fitted discs and pads at about 50k miles and it's not especially cheap.
_________________
997.2 C2S PDK
997.2 C4S PDK
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
keendean
Silverstone


Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 122
Location: Cambs


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never driven a Targa, what are they like day to day? Why would you avoid one? They look amazing with the wide body Smile This car in question had front discs and pads in 2016. It may be due its PDK service too, this I am a little unsure on.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Magic919
Imola


Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 818
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any 4 model will have the same wide body.

I wouldn't buy one as they are quite unpopular in the UK and I wouldn't want the Targa roof, even to leave it shut. I sometimes use the roof bars and I expect that's impossible.

The plus side would be the easy access through the rear hatch, but that's not enough for me.

PDK clutch oil change is due for year 6 service. Front transmission too for AWD cars.
_________________
997.2 C2S PDK
997.2 C4S PDK
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
keendean
Silverstone


Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 122
Location: Cambs


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magic919 wrote:
Any 4 model will have the same wide body.

I wouldn't buy one as they are quite unpopular in the UK and I wouldn't want the Targa roof, even to leave it shut. I sometimes use the roof bars and I expect that's impossible.

The plus side would be the easy access through the rear hatch, but that's not enough for me.

PDK clutch oil change is due for year 6 service. Front transmission too for AWD cars.


Thanks for this. So, I need to factor this in plus a major service. I never imagined that the Targa was unpopular? Ideal world a C4S Gen 2. It looks as if I need to save or finance further. My thinking is, if I need to get shot quickly, I need a car that appeals to a market as wide as possible. The Targa glass roof looks smart, and must be super bright and light with the black cabin. And is close as I can get to a convertible, without owning one, this was my thought process.

At least I have food for thought, and have been boring the wife senseless with Porsche talk and pricing.

Its good to hear other people opinions, I understand pricing, and which model is best is of course is subjective, but none the less has all been very helpful.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6529
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For counterpoint, I had a 993 Targa and absolutely loved it! The airy interior feel was very special, plus being able to open the roof was a bonus. It had a style all of its own too.

I would seek out a 997 Gen 2 targa given half a chance.
_________________
"911- the guilt-free supercar"

Current: 2003 C4S Coupe, seal/black

Ex: '02 C4S Coupe, '96 993 Targa, '88 Carrera Sport Coupe
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
   
rabbitstew
Montreal


Joined: 21 Aug 2015
Posts: 624



PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keendean wrote:
Amazing. All being well, I'd keep the car a long time. This car has if I was to buy it, four previous owners. I know what you mean in terms of just enjoying the car, rather than checking the market constantly. Its like a fever, so when I buy a car, at least I'll have lots of free time. Glad you're enjoying your car, and gives me something to think about. Thanks


My biggest dilemma was do I sell it before it gets to 90k or keep it longer. I figure once it gets to 100k, there will be very little difference in value between 100k and 120k or more so I may as well keep it longer....

With regards to the big service... my indi charges about £380 if I remember rightly. It certainly wasnt much more than a minor. Things like plugs, brake fluid change and the like are on top of that if required.
_________________
2008 997.1 Turbo Manual
2000 Ducati 996
1999 Yamaha R1
1994 Kawasaki ZXR750L2
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
FZP
Indianapolis


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 2474
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you buy It, you'll soon find out if it's a keeper or not. I say that at 39k, you can't really go wrong because as some point the appreciation curve will bounce back, regardless of mileage. It's whether you're in for the long haul or not.
_________________
997.2 Carrera 2S GT Silver/Cocoa.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Zingari
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 12527
Location: Cheshire

1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can get lower mileage 997.2 S for cheaper than £40k Dont know

2009 Targa 4S with 37k on it sold for 37 bags Grin
_________________
Alfa Romeo’s 4C is everything a Italian sports-car should be: it’s gorgeous to the point of pornography, distinctive enough that nobody will ever mistake it for a Porsche, handles like it’s on rails and steers like a kart.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
keendean
Silverstone


Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 122
Location: Cambs


PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zingari wrote:
You can get lower mileage 997.2 S for cheaper than £40k Dont know

2009 Targa 4S with 37k on it sold for 37 bags Grin


Sorry was that a question or a statement? Smile I've not seen any C4S Gen 2 cars sub 40K.

2009 4S sold for 37k? Where/when? Question
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   All times are GMT - 12 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum