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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 11381
Location: 4,000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:27 pm    Post subject: Classic Cars 996 investment review. Reply with quote

I've been meaning to write this post for a while after the GF bought me August's edition of Classic Cars magazine to take on holiday. The main article in the magazine was "Porsches to buy now - 6 drives tipped to rise" of which one of those 6 was a 996.

I thought this should be a good read, lets see what they've come up with. So, to start off, they've gone out to hunt down IMHO the worst looking 996 ever made - that wretched jade green with the awful green leather interior to match. Then if that wasn't enough, they make sure it's a tiptronic so they can dub down the performance figures they print, i.e. 0-60 in 5.9 seconds, 171mph.
The writer then goes on to tell us how the 3.6 is far less likely to be affected by the notorious intermediate shaft bearing and cracked cylinder block weaknesses that have blighted the reputation of the 3.4, even though the incidence rate is actually only around 1 in 10. Surprised

He then concludes "I'm still trying to make my mind up about the 996. Am I being seduced by its abilities, novelty value and this one's stunning colour scheme?" Is he on acid???

Fortunately Quentin Wilson saves the day by chirping in at the end - "I could never live with a 996 because of those cracking bore liners and heads. They look great value but even those low milers can have problems"

They could really do with doing their homework before going to print.







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chriscoates81
Suzuka


Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 1008



PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TBF, due to the 'specialness' of that colour combo, its probably a unique car Very Happy . My personal view is the IMS is not that bad (im sure i read around 5%) its just if you're unlucky and get one that fails (remember people shout loudest when they have a problem) i bet theres 1,000s of 996 owners with IMS's that havent failed but they dont post on the internet.
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westcoastclassic
Trainee


Joined: 12 Jun 2017
Posts: 96
Location: Bonny Scotland


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the issue with the review, mostly accurate.
Personally I think that's a great colour, one that will be very rewarding to shine, plus not everyday Black or Silver.
What's was the point here, lost on me Question
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moorhouse
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Apr 2013
Posts: 430
Location: Northumberland


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as a counterpoint - there is very positive 11 page (inc pictures) article in Issue 172 Oct of Octane magazine - strapline - "why the 996 really is the one to buy right now. Features a 3.6 2004 Carrera 2 and a GT3.

End summary is

"Right now, the 996 is an underappreciated and undervalued Porsche. Its the 911 that, at the moment, strikes just the right balance between classis character and modern performance and features."
then
"If you'd love to own a 911, you'll love a 996. Do your homework, buy well and you'll bag a bargain. As for the google eyes, you'll just have to live with them".

Overall a pretty decent article, especially for those new to the 996.

Cheers.Ian
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Bluebird911
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 356



PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westcoastclassic wrote:
What's the issue with the review, mostly accurate.
Personally I think that's a great colour, one that will be very rewarding to shine, plus not everyday Black or Silver.
What's was the point here, lost on me Question


Agreed! Seems a pretty fair assessment to me! I read this a couple of months ago when it was first published and I thought it was more balanced than many I have read. I even like the colour scheme, though agree it is individual and the trade wouldn't be interested it come trade in Thumb
 
  
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paul987
Albert Park


Joined: 27 Feb 2015
Posts: 1650
Location: east mids


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The exterior is not the best colour choice... But that interior Yuk Even the carpet is nasty..

Someone needs to check if David Icke ordered that from the factory when he was in his turquoise faze... Mr. Green what
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2006 987 Boxster S 3.2 - Guards red
 
  
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APL911
Silverstone


Joined: 15 Aug 2017
Posts: 115



PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems a fair assessment to me, although the comments on the 3.4 being less reliable than the 3.6 are maybe a bit misguided (wrong).

To be fair, I don't think anyone should buy a 996 if they are looking for an investment. I've just bought a C4S as something to cherish and enjoy ownership of for the long term. If in 10 years time it's worth a bit more money then great. If not, I don't really care. Smile
 
  
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wasz
Kyalami


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1884


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westcoastclassic wrote:
What's the issue with the review, mostly accurate.
Personally I think that's a great colour, one that will be very rewarding to shine, plus not everyday Black or Silver.
What's was the point here, lost on me Question


I think Alex is pointing out the glaring inaccuracies:

Actually the 3.4 is far less affected by IMS bearing problems as they had a stronger bearing, which Porsche subsequently cheaped out on. Even then, why mention it when only a tiny number of engines are affected? It was a big deal when they were new but not anymore. They are all old old engines - a million things could break now.

The blocks don't crack, there were a few heads cracking early on due to poor castings (shown themselves by now), and minor RMS leaks unacceptable on a new car but par for the course on an old car.

The bore liners don't crack, in fact they don't even have separate bore liners. Its the plastic piston coatings on 3.6+ cars that break up and score the bores. The 3.4 has a more robust ferrous piston coating.

Maybe we should start our own magazine. Call it "996.1 drum banging" or something.
 
  
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Stoo.c
Silverstone


Joined: 07 Apr 2014
Posts: 103
Location: Hertfordshire


PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be awkward, one of the liners did crack on my 3.6 causing the engine to hydrolock and snap the rod and then totally destroy the block.
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Bluebird911
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 356



PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="wasz

The bore liners don't crack, in fact they don't even have separate bore liners. Its the plastic piston coatings on 3.6+ cars that break up and score the bores. The 3.4 has a more robust ferrous piston coating.
[/quote]

You are obviously ignoring D cracking and chunking of liners Question

It is these issues that keep the 996 prices reasonable for those prepared to accept the risks!
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 11381
Location: 4,000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of the 3 and half years I've been on this forum, I've never witnessed any of the above problems on the 996 3.4 engine. There may have been some infant mortalaties (which were obviously manufacturing defects) when released but you never see any now.
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Dave Smith
Trainee


Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Fleet

2004 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I manged to buy mine nearly 10 years ago just before the internet horror stories took off. I thus had the pleasure of seeing its value go spectacularly down the toilet Surprised.

As I had no intention of changing cars it luckily didn't make too much of a difference and I eventually stopped worrying about its value. I'm guessing it probably bottomed out about 3 years ago.

I don't think the 996 (non Turbo /non GT3) will ever shake off the bad press associated with the engines (as shown by this article). However, there comes a point when the sheer value of the 996 performance package can't be overlooked and its going to at least hold its value, but hardly an investment.
 
  
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Niall996
Imola


Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 828
Location: Paris


PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Smith wrote:
I manged to buy mine nearly 10 years ago just before the internet horror stories took off. I thus had the pleasure of seeing its value go spectacularly down the toilet Surprised.

As I had no intention of changing cars it luckily didn't make too much of a difference and I eventually stopped worrying about its value. I'm guessing it probably bottomed out about 3 years ago.

I don't think the 996 (non Turbo /non GT3) will ever shake off the bad press associated with the engines (as shown by this article). However, there comes a point when the sheer value of the 996 performance package can't be overlooked and its going to at least hold its value, but hardly an investment.


Hmm! Having thought about it a little more, I actually think they have to go up by quite a margin, meaning up to the high twenties early thirties over the next five years.
Why do I think that? Well as long as people want to drive great sports cars and are allowed to, then affordability is the primary key. So what will the average 35yr old's options be in 2025 say? He wants a really great very fast, light, great handling analogue sports car. Probably but not critically manual. The roads around him are filled with VW Golf and Ford Focus EV's (with amazing torque - we know). He probably has one himself. But he hankers after a bit of old school vroom vroom at weekends and some personal driving cave time. Maybe some track time. He's still young but he has a bit of cash.

Most 996's by then will be probably nicely maintained and restored. Many will have complete supension overhauls. Air coolers are long gone beyond affordability and sense even now, although 993's and SC's are still possible (but for how much longer?). They aint coming down. But water coolers will have ben the definng 911's for nearly thirty years. Already there is a pantheon of absiute legends, GT3's, Sports Classic., GTS, GT2 RS's and all of those super collectables. At some point a 911 is a 911 is a 911. And stipped out Carrera's will be rock and roll for the ordinary guy.

By 2025 Porsche will also have released a couple of further generations of 911 including the EV/Hyrbid one. They'll have won Formual E and F1. The brand will be as alluring as ever. Ferrari's will presumably be way out of your range. Even Mondials and 400/456' are now getting pricey. What is our imaginary 35yr old (who is about mid twenties today) going to look at? Merc SLC? AM Vantage? BMW Z4/? i8's too new school maybe?

And on the reverse of that coin. Who's going to look after a 996 for the next six or seven years, upgrade it, perfect it, treasure it, keep the mileage down (ouch!) and then let it go for less than what may be the price of a Fiesta in 2025? Rough examples will be consigned to being parts donors. In a world where analogue sports cars are a real special novelty what will our imaginary 35yr old's choice be at that sweet spot of 25-30K Sterling in 2025? Now do the man maths and get that suspension overhaul, add a PSE and why not invest in a bit of an engine rebuild!
 
  
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Winny911
Nürburgring


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 490



PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best time to invest was 5 -6 years ago. market price for a 1 owner c4s was £16k (I bought one - still got it) but at the time you could also buy a usable c2 for £7-8k.
 
  
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wasz
Kyalami


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1884


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bluebird911 wrote:


You are obviously ignoring D cracking and chunking of liners Question

It is these issues that keep the 996 prices reasonable for those prepared to accept the risks!




(Mostly) "infant mortality" as Alex so eloquently put it.

Anything with a few miles on it will have shown the faulty castings by now.

Except Stoo.c, who is the exception that proves the rule, he doesn't mention mileage, also be has a 3.6 which didn't have the problem with faulty castings - that was the 3.4.
 
  
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wasz
Kyalami


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1884


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and buyers of old Porsches don't care about the risk of rebuilding engines.


Let me qualify that:

Buyers of nearly new cars, the buyer is the type that expects it to work with no problems whatsoever, a rebuild is off their radar and they would void anything with any reputation. Its not acceptable risk when buying a nearly new car. So the 996 bombed in value.


Buyers of old cars know full well that anything might go pop at any time, and they have no warranty. They are well aware of the risk of rebuilding, but the character of the cars means its a risk worth taking. As a whole proposition they like the 996 so they start to rise in value.


So completely different sets of buyers with different attitudes to risk.

Some air-cooled cars had a bad engine rep for a while, now look at the desirability!

The 996's biggest problem in value rise is the 997.2, which is basically the same car but with reduced risk. So its unlikely to rise beyond 997.2 IMHO unlike the trend from prior Porsches.

Maybe I'll buy a 997.2, convert to cable throttle and swap the wings and headlights from mine. Call it a Slinger or something.
 
  
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Niall996
Imola


Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 828
Location: Paris


PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasz wrote:

Maybe I'll buy a 997.2, convert to cable throttle and swap the wings and headlights from mine. Call it a Slinger or something.


Or 'Minger.'
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 11381
Location: 4,000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Niall996 wrote:
wasz wrote:

Maybe I'll buy a 997.2, convert to cable throttle and swap the wings and headlights from mine. Call it a Slinger or something.


Or 'Minger.'


Floor


Wonder how long it'll be before the likes of Singer, etc. start using a 996 as a base car for re-inventing the SC or 993? Question Grin
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997 Coast
Nürburgring


Joined: 04 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hell will freeze over
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paul987
Albert Park


Joined: 27 Feb 2015
Posts: 1650
Location: east mids


PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Niall996 wrote:
wasz wrote:

Maybe I'll buy a 997.2, convert to cable throttle and swap the wings and headlights from mine. Call it a Slinger or something.


Or 'Minger.'


Floor The 997 back ends not that bad is it Laughing
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