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911TEL
Österreich


Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 978
Location: Inverness and Highlands

2011 Porsche 997 Turbo S

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:51 am    Post subject: Mezger v DFI.....? Advantage DFI..... Reply with quote

All the talk about the Mezger engine ......

....whilst I can understand the love when it's the GT3 N/A version ( I have owned both 997 gen cars, I have had both Mezger and DFI in Turbo cars and I don't think anyone could tell the difference in sound or engine characteristics ... apart from the fact that the DFI engine is more powerful with more linear power & torque feel ... so is the 'love' for the Mezger on reputation alone .... My opinion is that we revere a legend without logic for the more improved logical step forward.....

Can any owners ( I reckon only owners and past owners can really comment here ) list the clear differences between the two which logically explains the love for the Mezger over the DFI....

Your thoughts?
Terry
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2365
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the DFI more powerful? Or are the larger power outputs on the 997.2 down to the revised turbo's and larger intercoolers fitted in those cars? No doubt the DFI is the more fuel efficient and cost effective engine.
 
  
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Niall996
Imola


Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 828
Location: Paris


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re Mezger, people love a good yarn especially when there's a person's name attached.
 
  
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Desert Dragon
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 03 May 2017
Posts: 367



PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For 95% people the DFI PDK turbo the way to go. For the enthusiast I'd always suggest a manual Mezger.

You cannot compare a £20k DFI engine to a fully dry sumped race derived £40k Mezger when it comes to track day, hill climb, amateur racing use etc Judge
 
  
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911UK
Porsche Community
Porsche Community


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9233
Location: 911UK

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's more of an issue in the Carrera models, Turbo's run just fine Thumb

be interested to get Carrera owner views
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Phil 997
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 10109
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having had both gen1 and gen2 NA cars although the gen 1 997 engine is a nice solid lump and I loved it and had very very little problem with it, there is no doubt the gen2 DFI engine is a more refined more powerful and more economical power plant but does it add more grin " no not really" the grin you get from driving any 911 is all the grin you need and whether you spend 15k or 60k the grin is the same just the wallet is lighter lol Thumb Thumb
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MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5397
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I understand it, the Mezger engine was introduced because Porsche couldn't afford a proper development of a road car engine. So although the per-unit cost was a lot higher they went with what was effectively a very expensive race car engine for use as a road car engine. You don't see that these days, so it has real hishory and heritage. It isn't refined or super efficient. But it is largely bulletproof, and is the kind of engine which we are unlikely to see again.

MC
 
  
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Phil 997
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 10109
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
As I understand it, the Mezger engine was introduced because Porsche couldn't afford a proper development of a road car engine. So although the per-unit cost was a lot higher they went with what was effectively a very expensive race car engine for use as a road car engine. You don't see that these days, so it has real hishory and heritage. It isn't refined or super efficient. But it is largely bulletproof, and is the kind of engine which we are unlikely to see again.

MC


Thats really interesting info and 100% the reason for anyone buying a gen1 turbo over a gen2 and probably the same for choosing a gen1 GTcar over a gen2 . Great when you learn some new snippet of info Thumb Thumb
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pzero
General
General


Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 4217
Location: London


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
MisterCorn wrote:
As I understand it, the Mezger engine was introduced because Porsche couldn't afford a proper development of a road car engine. So although the per-unit cost was a lot higher they went with what was effectively a very expensive race car engine for use as a road car engine. You don't see that these days, so it has real hishory and heritage. It isn't refined or super efficient. But it is largely bulletproof, and is the kind of engine which we are unlikely to see again.

MC


Thats really interesting info and 100% the reason for anyone buying a gen1 turbo over a gen2 and probably the same for choosing a gen1 GTcar over a gen2 . Great when you learn some new snippet of info Thumb Thumb


Both the 997.1 GT3, and 997.2 GT3 have the Mezger engine.
 
  
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Matt Seabrook
Monza


Joined: 27 Apr 2014
Posts: 161
Location: Cornwall


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having owned both 997.1 manual and 997.2 PDK turbos on the road there is little to choose between the engines for performance. The gearbox in the gen 2 makes a big difference and for me a better choice for a road car all other things aside between Gen 1 & 2.

It reminds me of when I owned Westfields and all the talk was it had to have a Vauxhall lump as it was said "you can get 300bhp from one if tuned" I would then ask the question oh how much power have you got then? The reply was it wasn't tuned so about 180bhp. 😆 The thing is its great having an engine with heritage or that will tune to a gazillion hours power but does it really matter if you have no plans of stretching it? If it mattered to me I would still have a Gen 1. At the end of the day for me you should be proud of owning either as not many people could say they have the privilege of doing so.
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easternjets
Barcelona


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
Posts: 1268
Location: Up North!


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I mentioned at length in a previous post and having been very lucky to have owned both a Gen 1 & Gen 2 Turbo, I found the differences quite subtle.
I can see the 'cult' following the Metzger has and having driven one I think the best way to describe it is a bit savage, being a race engine it's not very refined but it's fast, it's punch you in the back fast.
I think the Gen 1 accelerates harder than the Gen 2, probably down to the more punchy delivery but the DFi is definitely more refined, it's smoother not as harsh and is obviously a road, as opposed to a race engine.
Economy, there's nothing in it. Personally I found the Gen 1 more economical on motorway runs.
The biggest difference between the two cars though is the PDK box, it's just perfect, apart from the ruddy juddering when it's cold! Certainly makes the DFi engines power delivery seamless.
Put the box in Sport mode and it's telepathic, my only criticism and I thought about it today coming down the A68, is that the Sport button should be located somewhere a bit more convenient than where it is, maybe on the wheel or better located on the centre console. I find myself switching in and out of Sport mode quite a bit.
Anyway this is about engines not gearboxes!
I only prefer the DFi because of the gearbox, I just couldn't love the Tip at all, every time I drove the car it used to bug me!
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MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5397
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My advice to anybody with a turbo Mezger would be to not tune it. Leave it just as it left the factory.

MC
 
  
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2365
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
My advice to anybody with a turbo Mezger would be to not tune it. Leave it just as it left the factory.

MC


Why?
 
  
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MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5397
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apollokre1d wrote:
MisterCorn wrote:
My advice to anybody with a turbo Mezger would be to not tune it. Leave it just as it left the factory.

MC


Why?


Because it is a long and slippery slope which will end up with large costs and 1000hp. Unless of course you have sort of self control. Rolling Eyes

MC
 
  
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911tom
Albert Park


Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 1659
Location: Buckinghamshire


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
apollokre1d wrote:
MisterCorn wrote:
My advice to anybody with a turbo Mezger would be to not tune it. Leave it just as it left the factory.

MC


Why?


Because it is a long and slippery slope which will end up with large costs and 1000hp. Unless of course you have sort of self control. Rolling Eyes

MC


Good advice!
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DynoMike
Barcelona


Joined: 25 May 2012
Posts: 1291
Location: The Cotswolds

2003 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

911tom wrote:
MisterCorn wrote:
apollokre1d wrote:
MisterCorn wrote:
My advice to anybody with a turbo Mezger would be to not tune it. Leave it just as it left the factory.

MC


Why?


Because it is a long and slippery slope which will end up with large costs and 1000hp. Unless of course you have sort of self control. Rolling Eyes

MC


Good advice!



That's great advice guys, of course both of you practice what you preach too.... Grin
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westcoastclassic
Trainee


Joined: 12 Jun 2017
Posts: 96
Location: Bonny Scotland


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
My advice to anybody with a turbo Mezger would be to not tune it. Leave it just as it left the factory.

MC


Come again?
Question

Should that not have read " tune with only a select few tuners"
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2365
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
apollokre1d wrote:
MisterCorn wrote:
My advice to anybody with a turbo Mezger would be to not tune it. Leave it just as it left the factory.

MC


Why?


Because it is a long and slippery slope which will end up with large costs and 1000hp. Unless of course you have sort of self control. Rolling Eyes

MC


That advice should apply to everyone don't you think? Not just "anybody with a turbo Mezger"... some of us tend do it properly and actually do our research on where to go for these mods, for those that don't it's their own stupid fault.
 
  
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911tom
Albert Park


Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 1659
Location: Buckinghamshire


PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what mc is saying is you start with an exhaust and remap. Then it's not enough so you buy a pair of k16 hybrids and a 5 bar fpr. Then you think I may as well change the injectors and intercoolers to get the most out of the turbos. You run like that for a couple of years then you think a small refresh of the engine would be nice, rods head studs etc. That way you can safely push a bit more. Then before you know it you are thinking f it, might as well go all the way 3.8 conversion etc.... then comes meth injection.

I'm not alone in this I can think of several others on this forum that have been through this process or are part way through already.
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Desert Dragon
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 03 May 2017
Posts: 367



PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the key thing is to have a goal re mods and then stick to it. If you then talk through your goals with a quality tuner who has done it many times before he'll suggest the best route to achieve those goals within a set budget.

The 996 and 997.1 and 997.2 turbo leave so much power on the table crazy at least not to put a better than OEM flowing exhaust and a better than OEM flash which gives better fuel consumption, better drivability due to less lag and more power of course. Hard to argue against a flash and exhaust especially when its from a tuner like Manthey or 9e.

Tom, interesting you mention meth I've been looking at the tuning market for 996/997 and ESM tuned cars are quicker generally due to using meth injection. The issue I have is that if you tune for meth and have a stuck jet or failed solenoid it could be catastrophic. Tom PM me pls with that info as I was going to use your guy for some mod work. Any feedback on experience very helpful. All the best thumbsup
 
  
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