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daz parker
Monza


Joined: 12 Aug 2015
Posts: 198



PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And this is the black 07 no rebuild but bores checked

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302442509368
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10987
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looking at the bills from the first car. Had all 6 cylinders done but no new crank bearings, etc. You could easily call that a half a***d job. Also skimming the worn discs up too rather than replacing with new. Some folk are full of no. 2s.
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daz parker
Monza


Joined: 12 Aug 2015
Posts: 198



PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah tbh when I read the discs had been skimmed I didn't like that, what's it saved like 200 quid?

Maybe they weren't in really bad shape so just wanted a little skim?
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10987
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who knows. But if I had a bill saying discs skimmed, I'd at least expect to see the new thickness skimmed down to printed on it. Bet the garage in question didn't even measure them.
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10987
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rear Meyle 997 discs - £115.
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daz parker
Monza


Joined: 12 Aug 2015
Posts: 198



PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So saved nowt then!
 
  
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rob_p
Imola


Joined: 20 Oct 2013
Posts: 782
Location: Leicester


PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
A full engine rebuild with all 6 cylinders done and done properly is in the region of £15k minimum.


I think that's a bit steep isn't it?
Hartech are in the region of £10k with everything done (I know it varies so could a bit more or less than this).
At least that's what I spent 2 years ago so unless prices have massively increased...
My decision was to do everything based on peace of mind and resale values (god forbid!). And I was firmly in the camp of using a "known" engine builder. Not a job to cut corners on IMHO.
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997.1 C2 (full Hartech rebuild, Ohlins coilovers, ducktail, plus some other bits)
Jeep Grand Cherokee WK2
Ex Audi A8 V8 4.2tdi (best all round car I will ever own?)
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Plus some other stuff that wasn't very interesting....
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10987
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose it depends on what work is done. When people write listings for their cars and state "not a half a****d job" Then doing a proper job on an engine rebuild would also include many other things like AOS, clutch and flywheel, larger IMS bearing, etc.

Factor all that in and the price can easily get where I quoted. Even so - your £10k rebuild could've bought a 996.
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daz parker
Monza


Joined: 12 Aug 2015
Posts: 198



PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen receipts from hartech rebuilds and they haven't been 15k rebuilds but it's how deep they want to go.

So theme seems to be if it's had a rebuilds it's hartech really but if one comes up with any builders I'll post up the add for you guys to check it out.
 
  
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daz parker
Monza


Joined: 12 Aug 2015
Posts: 198



PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've not fully decided if buying a later car like a 2007 without a rebuild but bores checked from a Porsche Indy are a good buy as the bores could still fail. (I guess you all like rsj but other Indus might/could be as honest).
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10987
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't use anyone else if my engine needed rebuilding for 2 reasons:

1. I've been to Hartech and seen what those guys do and the amount of knowledge gained from the years of development work on the M96/M97 engines.

2. I've heard too many horror stories about engine rebuilds from some of the other UK specialists (like welding cylinder liners in blocks because they presumably bored them out too big).

You only need to spend 15 minutes in some of the facebook Porsche groups to know who you can trust.
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daz parker
Monza


Joined: 12 Aug 2015
Posts: 198



PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you suggest some Facebook pages I can join to have a look?
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10987
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one I'm in most is the 996 owners page, but just do a search for porsche on facebook and it'll come up with them all. Great as an extra source for help and info as well as here and each group has a search facility so you can search for posts about different specialists and read some of the comments.

Don't really want to start posting loads of facebook groups as I might get done wack Grin
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 808
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am reluctant to get involved in this discussion (often you just cannot win if some contributors are simply against you) but I would just like to point out that our cylinders are aerospace alloy with Nikasil bores and locate into a precision machined recess in the top of the cylinder block that we machine in - creating a closed deck and our cylinders are manufactured under licence by a leading F1 supplier.

Some others claim to create a closed deck but the top of the liner does not actually touch the top of the block and many others are not alloy but iron or steel.

I also know of no one else that can carry out the full strip and rebuild plus all the engine machining, honing and fitting under the same roof and quality control. once the whole car is under our roof we can complete the whole job internally.

Without getting into the merits of different solutions - it is wrong to compare prices with others as if the engine build is like for like when it is usually not and the specifications also vary considerably.

We have also extensively researched and tested the reasons why bank 2 fails long before bank 1 and carry out adjustments to minimise the problem causing it. But although standard engines will usually score bank 2 first, bank 1 will eventually follow - it just lasts longer before it also scores - hence worthwhile fixing during an engine rebuild and for which we discount the liner costs as the number of cylinders being replaced increases to encourage owners to do all 6.

I have been surprised to find that when equal numbers of parts have been modified or changed and the cost of the whole job is compared - we have often been cheaper than some technically inferior alternatives.

Our equipment and quality control systems also measure and check far more components before we complete our recommendations than many others.

There are alternative suppliers and options and of course plenty of work for everyone and there are others doing a good job - but when discussing different suppliers and prices - it would be good to identify exactly what technical specification the others actually provide to make sure comparisons are accurate and fair.

Baz
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10987
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bow Bow


Now lets wait to hear from 'other' engine rebuilders to see how their process compares..........and wait...........and wait.........and wait..........and wait yawn


Scratch that - the owner doesn't sit scaring people on internet forums all day Whistling
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daz parker
Monza


Joined: 12 Aug 2015
Posts: 198



PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This subject had obviously been thrashed out loads before but been a newbie and these cars been 12 years old now things might have changed with regards to issues and preventative plans.
 
  
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daz parker
Monza


Joined: 12 Aug 2015
Posts: 198



PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@bazhart Am I been miss told facts when I'm told the later gen 1 engines (2007 -2007) are rarely effected by bore scoring when compared to the 04/05 engines?
 
  
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Marky911
Österreich


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 977



PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
Bow Bow


Now lets wait to hear from 'other' engine rebuilders to see how their process compares..........and wait...........and wait.........and wait..........and wait yawn


Scratch that - the owner doesn't sit scaring people on internet forums all day Whistling



Hey Alex, why don't you and Baz get a room? You're clearly his number 1 fan. Wink

You should change your username to "Toe nails" as it's all we can see sticking out of Baz's arse. Grin

Honestly, I've never known anything like it. Are you hoping to get a job there or something? Wink

Not gonna argue with the internet sheep. Hartech are great at what they do, but to think nobody else can sort an M96 engine thoroughly and properly is just total head in the sand stuff.

There is no engineering company on this planet that can do something another engineering company can't. It's all just methods and procedures.

It really isn't magic.

I will say again Hartech are great and extremely knowledgeable, but this sheep mentality does my **** in.

Only on the internet eh.....

Genuinely no offence Baz, I'm just saying what I see and I'm sure you won't lose any sleep over my views.
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10987
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marky911 wrote:

Hey Alex, why don't you and Baz get a room? You're clearly his number 1 fan. Wink

You should change your username to "Toe nails" as it's all we can see sticking out of Baz's arse. Grin

Honestly, I've never known anything like it. Are you hoping to get a job there or something? Wink

Not gonna argue with the internet sheep.


Rolling Eyes

Grow up.
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 808
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK - Good point - you think we are all the same - so please you tell us which other engine rebuilder can match the following and are therefore the same.

Has a resident technical guy that has designed and made engines that have won at GP level, TT races, British Championships and Porsche Club classes?

Which other engine builders have their own precision machine shop with CNC machinery and carry out all their work in house?

Who first created a true closed deck modification and analysed and tested coolant flow to establish the need to alter the flow characteristics?.

Who pointed out that a third radiator actually increases the chances of bore scoring?

Which other engine rebuilders have a maintenance plan that results in free labour for engine rebuilds in the event of failure?

Who else has rebuilt hundreds of engines with true closed deck Nikasil alloy cylinders for more than 10 years and for many other Porsche specialists.

My point is that the comment that we are the same is not true. Of course there are other talented people out there that can rebuild engines and there are alternative solutions and technical specifications - some offer more than others and their reputation has grown and been recognised as a result of their success.

We can handle one rebuild/working day and yet are presently booked up into January 2018 and have a lot of new developments (like oversized engines) adding to our portfolio - we have no intention of moving to bigger premises or expanding - so we do not need to generate business and when we offer advice it is to help owners avoid damage (like our advice about warming up, which oils to use and providing LTT's etc). None of this brings in more engine rebuilds but helps owners delay or avoid them.

You are right that there are other good alternatives but there are also a lot of very inferior ones and for absolutely sure we are not all the same. If anyone thinks we are please provide a check list to show how and why to back up your claims.

Daz - I know of no differences that would make a later Gen 1 Cayman S, 3.4 996, 3.6 or 3.8 less likely to bore score than an earlier one except the obvious average lower mileage they will have covered and the greater numbers that by now will have been fitted with a LTT, more suitable oil, warmed up properly before driving hard and generally had better care now that the problems are general knowledge.

Gen 2 engines will be unlikely to bore score all together but may - after many years - seize a piston due to bore shrinkage in the thrust direction - which will still be very rare and can be minimised again by proper warming up especially in cold ambient conditions.


Baz
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