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Marv16
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Joined: 14 Dec 2019
Posts: 9



PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:48 pm    Post subject: Future for classic cars Reply with quote

Hi ,what's everybody's thoughts on the uk governments plan to stop sales of new cars 2035 hows it going to effect us running the cars we love (911), is there any point in splashing out on an used porsche ? ??
 
  
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7708
Location: South Oxfordshire

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theres a good thread on just this topic over on the 993 forum...
http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=137828
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easternjets
Indianapolis


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting article in the Mail today about the future of Electric Vehicles, I know it's the Mail but it seems to back up what a lot of people have been saying for a long time.
It's no surprise that the Chinese market in Rare Earth Metals, which they control 80%, will leave the E/V market held to ransom by them.

Article: https://mol.im/a/7968085

Hope the link works, if it doesn't it's on the Mail web site.
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Hamster75
Nürburgring


Joined: 07 Sep 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crucifixion 1 cross each first on the left Judge frustrated
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spongebob squarepants
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 6743
Location: Manchester and Iraq


PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

easternjets wrote:
Interesting article in the Mail today about the future of Electric Vehicles, I know it's the Mail but it seems to back up what a lot of people have been saying for a long time.
It's no surprise that the Chinese market in Rare Earth Metals, which they control 80%, will leave the E/V market held to ransom by them.

Article: https://mol.im/a/7968085

Hope the link works, if it doesn't it's on the Mail web site.


Awesome truly, a dose of actual reality to proceedings. One of the best links ever put on this site Thumb
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole thing from start to finish is farce after farce after face. How everyone can't see though it all is beyond me. I was winding my landlord up about it today when I informed him he'd have to provide charging points for every single employer on his site and also one for each 'works vehicle' too at which point he pointed out our location, how much ampage the local infrastructure could handle and also the requirement to restrict the use of any commercial electricity to compensate for the added usage.

I've since decided to buy a wind powered Lathe to do my turning on Floor Floor
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easternjets
Indianapolis


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
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Location: Darlington


PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading this article I did a bit of 'surfing' on the subject of E/V charging.

To charge an E/V on a rapid charge at your home requires 7.4 kw on a std 32 amp circuit. Now most households have two if not three cars, so you all get home in the evening and plug your vehicles into your charging pods and hey presto you trip the house electrics. Even if you charge the cars on a slow charge your still drawing about 10 kw of power at one time, then you switch your oven on and the kettle and the electric shower and you can see how most houses won't be able to handle the current draw.

The stand out bits in the article are: We must install 4,000 charging points 'per day' from yesterday to allow us to charge our electric cars.
The main supplier of Cobalt for the batteries is the DRC, hardly a stable democracy and with dubious human rights and child labour.
The Chinese supply 80% of the worlds neodymium, the processing of which produces radioactive pollution and sulphuric acid contamination, lovely!
The Chinese have already threatened to limit the supply of Rare Earth Metals if the trade war with the U.S. escalates.
The production of an Electric Vehicle produces 17 tonnes of CO2, that's the same as the average house produces over a 3 yr period.
Making the batteries alone produces as much CO2 as driving an average petrol powered car for 8 years.

As usual the government are cow towing to the green/environmentalist movement who are using this issue to further their cause as they jet around the world preaching about it!
Oil is not a limitless commodity and it will one day 'run out' but neither are all the other resources that the Electric vehicle revolution are demanding. The difference is Oil is available on nearly every continent in the World, we do not have to beg the Chinese for supplies of it.

My first rant of 2020 Hand
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7604
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We won't run out of oil. We will stop using oil because we will work out a better alternative.

The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stone.


MC
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
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Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly Nick...... Farce after farce after farce.

The whole CO2 vs climate is only a theory anyeay. Who changes the way the world lives (for the worse) over a theory?

If you've 10 minutes to spare, watch Greenpeace founder Dr Patrick Moore explain a few factual things:



Open Youtube Page

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Alex
Le Mans
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no reason why we can't make a car do 100mpg and thus half consumer transport CO2 if we wanted to.
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
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Location: South Oxfordshire

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
There's no reason why we can't make a car do 100mpg and thus half consumer transport CO2 if we wanted to.


Thats the real frustration to me with this blanket ban, it will remove all incentive to properly develop ICE engines where there is plenty of scope to improve them.

The only difference is that an EV produces no CO2/NOX at the point of use. All the other emissions in production, distribution, tyre and brake particulates etc are the same. Not to mention the ecological consequences of the battery manufacture and car end of life disposal.

You can keep an old ICE car going for years... the ramifications of keeping an EV going are scary.

Strangely, the ban has had the opposite effect on me. I was actually quite keen on an EV, but now that the ICE car's days are numbered, I want to make the most of it!
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Alex
Le Mans
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Folk'll change their tune now we're entering Grand Solar Minimum for the next 50 years and the whole CO2 myth gets debunked.
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spongebob squarepants
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I dug down now below my location, its only a matter of time before im a multi millionaire Grin gazillions of barrels of the stuff, and way more than at first thought, at least it can be used to power the power stations to produce the electricity Floor
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Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 744
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without writing an essay..........I had this conversation with my brother-in-law on Sunday night in the pub about the practical issues.

He is a manager, at the electric motor plant, of a well known motoring manufacturer in the midlands ( i won't mention who, just I get him into bother).

He was saying they were having all sorts of QA issues with the manufacturing.

He said it was an extremely dangerous process and 1 employee has already had a finger totally burnt off.

The batteries are a series of cells that need there terminals welded together, which due to amount of cells/welds, is a nightmare as the weld has to be at the perfect depth, not deep enough and the weld won't take, too deep and the cell explodes making the whole battery useless. Samsung make the cells by the way.

At the moment, if, a vehicle was to go on fire, the fire brigade could not extinguish the blaze with water as it would electrocute the fireman.

He said that Nissan use a pouch for their cells, which is far inferior and has a life of 6 years. Battery degradation is also high and after a couple of years the maximum range drops to 80 miles.

So it looks like we will all be leasing our cars in the future as residuals will be pants.

As far as charging needs, the paper article says 4,000 but I read a more accurate sounding figure of 2,700 charging points need to be built per day.

North Wales is well on the way to achieving this..........6 months ago there were 2 chargers in the whole area.........now there are 3.

I expect that that is better than the rail electrification N. Wales was promised 40 plus years ago. (don't get me started on H2)

We also discussed tax revenue.......the government would not be in a position to forego all that tax from petrol/diesel and would have to recoup it somehow.

Was it Mark Twain that said..."Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

It has turned into a bit of an essay, sorry.
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spongebob squarepants
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 6743
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhodris-dad wrote:
Without writing an essay..........I had this conversation with my brother-in-law on Sunday night in the pub about the practical issues.

He is a manager, at the electric motor plant, of a well known motoring manufacturer in the midlands ( i won't mention who, just I get him into bother).

He was saying they were having all sorts of QA issues with the manufacturing.

He said it was an extremely dangerous process and 1 employee has already had a finger totally burnt off.

The batteries are a series of cells that need there terminals welded together, which due to amount of cells/welds, is a nightmare as the weld has to be at the perfect depth, not deep enough and the weld won't take, too deep and the cell explodes making the whole battery useless. Samsung make the cells by the way.

At the moment, if, a vehicle was to go on fire, the fire brigade could not extinguish the blaze with water as it would electrocute the fireman.

He said that Nissan use a pouch for their cells, which is far inferior and has a life of 6 years. Battery degradation is also high and after a couple of years the maximum range drops to 80 miles.

So it looks like we will all be leasing our cars in the future as residuals will be pants.

As far as charging needs, the paper article says 4,000 but I read a more accurate sounding figure of 2,700 charging points need to be built per day.

North Wales is well on the way to achieving this..........6 months ago there were 2 chargers in the whole area.........now there are 3.

I expect that that is better than the rail electrification N. Wales was promised 40 plus years ago. (don't get me started on H2)

We also discussed tax revenue.......the government would not be in a position to forego all that tax from petrol/diesel and would have to recoup it somehow.

Was it Mark Twain that said..."Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

It has turned into a bit of an essay, sorry.


Tbf you could of just written this bit Grin Floor Floor Floor

North Wales is well on the way to achieving this..........6 months ago there were 2 chargers in the whole area.........now there are 3.
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Disco
Reims


Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 4008
Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I expect that if the ICE ban comes in as advertised, the market for medium volume cars built before about 2005 will grow appreciably. These are the cars that will be easiest to keep on the road as they largely predate unnecessary proprietary electronic gubbins (fewer and simpler/more repairable ECUs, no adaptive dampers or electronic differentials, stereos that don't double as controls for features of the actual car, etc...) as well as stuff put on later cars to (ironically) game emissions standards like exhaust gas recirculating, automatic stop/start, totally inappropriate gear ratios, electric power steering and so on. If the rolling 40 year classic band continues, by 2035 you will also of course have all of the 1995 and earlier cars tax and MOT exempt...

Question
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sim996
Monza


Joined: 05 Aug 2017
Posts: 234



PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hybrid is the way to go. Battery power for short journeys every day stuff, then petrol for fun and longer trips. Best of both.
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Petrol is the way forward Wink
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patpending
Österreich


Joined: 11 Jun 2018
Posts: 999
Location: IoM


PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The environmental cost to make EV’s + the environmental cost to produce more mains power + the shorter scrap lifespans of EV with associated heavy pollution attributes could actually make them more environmentally unfriendly.

Also, are people dumb enough to think that HMRC are going to say goodbye to the huge income they currently get?.....of course not and road tax will migrate over to the EV’s and we will be back to paying loads to compensate for lost fuel duties and road tax.

Classic cars and cars like the 5.0 Ford Mustang will become even more valuable IMO.
 
  
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patpending
Österreich


Joined: 11 Jun 2018
Posts: 999
Location: IoM


PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spongebob squarepants wrote:
Rhodris-dad wrote:
Without writing an essay..........I had this conversation with my brother-in-law on Sunday night in the pub about the practical issues.

He is a manager, at the electric motor plant, of a well known motoring manufacturer in the midlands ( i won't mention who, just I get him into bother).

He was saying they were having all sorts of QA issues with the manufacturing.

He said it was an extremely dangerous process and 1 employee has already had a finger totally burnt off.

The batteries are a series of cells that need there terminals welded together, which due to amount of cells/welds, is a nightmare as the weld has to be at the perfect depth, not deep enough and the weld won't take, too deep and the cell explodes making the whole battery useless. Samsung make the cells by the way.

At the moment, if, a vehicle was to go on fire, the fire brigade could not extinguish the blaze with water as it would electrocute the fireman.

He said that Nissan use a pouch for their cells, which is far inferior and has a life of 6 years. Battery degradation is also high and after a couple of years the maximum range drops to 80 miles.

So it looks like we will all be leasing our cars in the future as residuals will be pants.

As far as charging needs, the paper article says 4,000 but I read a more accurate sounding figure of 2,700 charging points need to be built per day.

North Wales is well on the way to achieving this..........6 months ago there were 2 chargers in the whole area.........now there are 3.

I expect that that is better than the rail electrification N. Wales was promised 40 plus years ago. (don't get me started on H2)

We also discussed tax revenue.......the government would not be in a position to forego all that tax from petrol/diesel and would have to recoup it somehow.

Was it Mark Twain that said..."Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

It has turned into a bit of an essay, sorry.


Tbf you could of just written this bit Grin Floor Floor Floor

North Wales is well on the way to achieving this..........6 months ago there were 2 chargers in the whole area.........now there are 3.


Floor
 
  
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