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Norfolk & Idea
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1051
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nikos525 wrote:
Norfolk & Idea wrote:
Ah, bust casings. That's double fooked. Doubt there'll be much salvaged from that. Looks like a build from the crankshaft up. And that's if the crankshaft hasn't been scored to death.

Norfolk so do you reckon his indi was right in telling him to get a new engine without pulling anything part?


I'm no guru on car engines but generally speaking when an engine lets go like that the oil washes all the metal particulates around everything in seconds scoring the shoite out of everything in its path.
It's a bit like poking a sawn off into a room full of people and giving it both barrels. Everyone's going to get a bit.
If the casings have gone it's a new engine job for sure. They are sand cast and not repairable. Chances are the internals are goosed. He could perhaps ask the indy to tear down the engine and see what's salvageable but he may be throwing good money after bad in labour costs.
Me? I'd be heeding the indys advice and sourcing a new mill (block, liners, pistons and crankshaft) Tell him to ask about the heads and turbos, they may have survived.
There's an excellent, helpful Porsche tech on here called Demort. PM him, he'll give a good steer.
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Demort
Estoril


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 3502
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over boost is pretty bad for a standard engine .

You have there what looks like a con rod thats let go , the nut you are holding is the con rod bolt .

Rod flapping around has punched the hole , it will have a smashed piston , smashed liner or probably liners , if the crank is intact then theres a big saveing there but with a rod failure then that also tends to get damaged .

Ok a major failure but unless you can source an engine it may well need rebuilding .. it may even be cheaper than a second hand engine as well .

Its all about what can be salvaged and you wont find that out unless its stripped .

Try and find a replacement but if not its a strip and rebuild or a scrap vehicle .

I will say though that its coming into winter when garages are looking for projects to keep them ticking over till january so its a good time to get a better deal in a month or 2 .

Porsche owners tend to go on holiday or sorn there cars this time of year so less work about .. its the same for OPC,s .
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nikos525
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Joined: 03 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort wrote:
Over boost is pretty bad for a standard engine .

You have there what looks like a con rod thats let go , the nut you are holding is the con rod bolt .

Rod flapping around has punched the hole , it will have a smashed piston , smashed liner or probably liners , if the crank is intact then theres a big saveing there but with a rod failure then that also tends to get damaged .

Ok a major failure but unless you can source an engine it may well need rebuilding .. it may even be cheaper than a second hand engine as well .

Its all about what can be salvaged and you wont find that out unless its stripped .

Try and find a replacement but if not its a strip and rebuild or a scrap vehicle .

I will say though that its coming into winter when garages are looking for projects to keep them ticking over till january so its a good time to get a better deal in a month or 2 .

Porsche owners tend to go on holiday or sorn there cars this time of year so less work about .. its the same for OPC,s .


Thanks for the reply Demort, he's been without it for the last month while looking for an engine and is already having withdrawl symptoms Laughing
Good to know that a rebuild may be feasible if he can't source an engine.
I'll update once his indi pulls the engine and see what the full extent of the damage is.
 
  
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Demort
Estoril


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 3502
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its going to be a gamble but i wouldn,t think youll find many second hand engines for sale so theres not a lot of choice im afraid.
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Norfolk & Idea
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
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Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the bust casing? Replacement? Sure wont be fixed.
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Martian
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Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 2711
Location: Bury St. Edmunds

2007 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's only the second Mezger I know of that's let go. Mad

I know of a 996GT2 with Gemballa map and it's been 100% reliable, and it gets a hard time. Maybe it was one of Nicholas Lawrence's maps?! Very Happy
 
  
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Demort
Estoril


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
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Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norfolk & Idea wrote:
What about the bust casing? Replacement? Sure wont be fixed.


Yup it will need the caseings and thats something like £10 k there .. my point is if you cant find a second hand engine then its either a rebuild if possible or a new engine / scrapping the car .

engine R&R is a labour charge either way so only paying extra for the strip .


Something like £18k for an engine ? depending on what year .. early ones then 30 k ? .. probably a lot more than that that with out an exchange .. and thats not going to be an exchange unit !
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Norfolk & Idea
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1051
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martian wrote:
That's only the second Mezger I know of that's let go. Mad

I know of a 996GT2 with Gemballa map and it's been 100% reliable, and it gets a hard time. Maybe it was one of Nicholas Lawrence's maps?! Very Happy


To be fair if it was boosted to the moon it's going to let go. It's detonation that kills engines.
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Norfolk & Idea
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1051
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort wrote:
Norfolk & Idea wrote:
What about the bust casing? Replacement? Sure wont be fixed.


Yup it will need the caseings and thats something like £10 k there .. my point is if you cant find a second hand engine then its either a rebuild if possible or a new engine / scrapping the car .

engine R&R is a labour charge either way so only paying extra for the strip .


Something like £18k for an engine ? depending on what year .. early ones then 30 k ? .. probably a lot more than that that with out an exchange .. and thats not going to be an exchange unit !


Oof. A lot of dough right there...
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nikos525
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Joined: 03 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, it was the boost that killed this engine for sure, I'm surprised it held on for that long tbh.
Bells should have been ringing when he burnt out his gearbox twice.
IIRC it was running some absurd boost like 1.9 or 2.0 bar Surprised
 
  
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Norfolk & Idea
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1051
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That seems loads. Had mine tweaked from 1.2 to 1.4bar and it's lifted performance significantly. If you go much higher you need methanol to lower AIT's and all kinds of ignition offset to mitigate detonation.
Did your mate run methanol? It would be good to mine some data and analysis.
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nikos525
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Joined: 03 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norfolk unfortunately my mate went in with his eyes closed! I think he bought it purely for the body kit and how fast the acceleration was, due to too much boost, he's not mechanically minded.
No methanol, nothing at all! Just a stupid programme down by a cowboy to sell the car!
I'm waiting to go and see if the engine has been stripped down to see the full extent of the damage.
 
  
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Frenchmeister
Suzuka


Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 1091
Location: Beautiful Cumbria.

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He needs to get the mapping sorted then or blow another engine.....jeez !
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996ttalot
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Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 1312
Location: Horley Gatwick


PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can always rebuild a turbo engine - it is just whether it is economical to do so and in most cases it is. I've had several that have let go in a big fashion and need new crankcase and liners. This then adds up on the price, especially if water jackets are damaged.

Here are some idea of prices with what is included.

http://www.nineexcellence.com/upgrades/engine.html?find=997-gen1--2005-2009--turbo-2958

Ken
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Jcx
Estoril


Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 3741


2010 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No rebuild prices for a gen 2 997 turbo ken? Yet to see one in need?
 
  
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996ttalot
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Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jcx wrote:
No rebuild prices for a gen 2 997 turbo ken? Yet to see one in need?
Yep no prices - have not seen one yet that needed rebuilding although I do know of some that have gone when let's say pushing the boundaries, but certainly not stock.

Still it could be worse - currently rebuilding 2.7RS engine - the parts alone make a turbo car look cheap! Surprised

Ken
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Jcx
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Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 3741


2010 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

996ttalot wrote:
Jcx wrote:
No rebuild prices for a gen 2 997 turbo ken? Yet to see one in need?
Yep no prices - have not seen one yet that needed rebuilding although I do know of some that have gone when let's say pushing the boundaries, but certainly not stock.

Still it could be worse - currently rebuilding 2.7RS engine - the parts alone make a turbo car look cheap! Surprised

Ken


Yikes. That must be quite a bill.

What does a PDK box cost to rebuild if required? I expect it's a piece of string thing but if it's possible an average case will do Smile
 
  
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Norfolk & Idea
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1051
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jcx wrote:
996ttalot wrote:
Jcx wrote:
No rebuild prices for a gen 2 997 turbo ken? Yet to see one in need?
Yep no prices - have not seen one yet that needed rebuilding although I do know of some that have gone when let's say pushing the boundaries, but certainly not stock.

Still it could be worse - currently rebuilding 2.7RS engine - the parts alone make a turbo car look cheap! Surprised

Ken


Yikes. That must be quite a bill.

What does a PDK box cost to rebuild if required? I expect it's a piece of string thing but if it's possible an average case will do Smile


Less than perpetual OPC warranty renewals Wink

You moving to the dark side? Go on, it's much more fun Smile
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Jcx
Estoril


Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 3741


2010 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norfolk & Idea wrote:
Jcx wrote:
996ttalot wrote:
Jcx wrote:
No rebuild prices for a gen 2 997 turbo ken? Yet to see one in need?
Yep no prices - have not seen one yet that needed rebuilding although I do know of some that have gone when let's say pushing the boundaries, but certainly not stock.

Still it could be worse - currently rebuilding 2.7RS engine - the parts alone make a turbo car look cheap! Surprised

Ken


Yikes. That must be quite a bill.

What does a PDK box cost to rebuild if required? I expect it's a piece of string thing but if it's possible an average case will do Smile


Less than perpetual OPC warranty renewals Wink

You moving to the dark side? Go on, it's much more fun Smile


Measuring the risk my good man Smile
 
  
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996ttalot
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Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 1312
Location: Horley Gatwick


PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jcx wrote:
996ttalot wrote:
Jcx wrote:
No rebuild prices for a gen 2 997 turbo ken? Yet to see one in need?
Yep no prices - have not seen one yet that needed rebuilding although I do know of some that have gone when let's say pushing the boundaries, but certainly not stock.

Still it could be worse - currently rebuilding 2.7RS engine - the parts alone make a turbo car look cheap! Surprised

Ken


Yikes. That must be quite a bill.

What does a PDK box cost to rebuild if required? I expect it's a piece of string thing but if it's possible an average case will do Smile
New PDK is on average £12.5k plus vat plus fitting. Porsche do not sell or offer any major internal parts for the gearbox, but they can be procured through other sources.

Rebuild at the moment is not an option but it will come as most Porsche going forward will be PDK, so the market for repairs will happen - something we are working on.
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