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T8
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject: When would a 911 stop being a 911? Reply with quote

This started on a different thread but (imo) is worthy of discussion in its own right.

Thoughts?


wasz wrote:


will be the same story when the 911 loses its flat six.

sure whatever they come up with will be worthy, just different.



If the 911 lost its flat six it wouldn't be a 911. Judge
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Last edited by T8 on Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Niall996
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
wasz wrote:


will be the same story when the 911 loses its flat six.

sure whatever they come up with will be worthy, just different.



If the 911 lost its flat six it wouldn't be a 911. Judge


I don't think it has to have a flat six necessarily to be a 911. I don't think there is one single element that defines a 911. It's more a combination of factors. If they put in a flat eight tomorrow I don't think the world (i.e. those who actually buy 911's new from the manufactuer) would care. Amnd there will be electirc 911's. At the very least hybrid within a couple of years where your flat six might be a 1litre charge only version. And within a couple more years after that, all electric.
 
  
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T8
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Niall996 wrote:


I don't think it has to have a flat six necessarily to be a 911. I don't think there is one single element that defines a 911. It's more a combination of factors. If they put in a flat eight tomorrow I don't think the world (i.e. those who actually buy 911's new from the manufactuer) would care. Amnd there will be electirc 911's. At the very least hybrid within a couple of years where your flat six might be a 1litre charge only version. And within a couple more years after that, all electric.



Sorry, I can't agree.

The 911 has had a flat-six engine for 54 years.

Turbo charging it or hybriding it is ok but lose the flat six and it will cease to be a 911.
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Niall996
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
Niall996 wrote:


I don't think it has to have a flat six necessarily to be a 911. I don't think there is one single element that defines a 911. It's more a combination of factors. If they put in a flat eight tomorrow I don't think the world (i.e. those who actually buy 911's new from the manufactuer) would care. Amnd there will be electirc 911's. At the very least hybrid within a couple of years where your flat six might be a 1litre charge only version. And within a couple more years after that, all electric.



Sorry, I can't agree.

The 911 has had a flat-six engine for 54 years.

Turbo charging it or hybriding it is ok but lose the flat six and it will cease to be a 911.


Well ultimately that's between Porsche and their future consumers to decide. If Porsche put '911' on the back and buyers pay for them, then they're 911's.
 
  
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coullstar
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with that.
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T8
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Niall996 wrote:
T8 wrote:
Niall996 wrote:


I don't think it has to have a flat six necessarily to be a 911. I don't think there is one single element that defines a 911. It's more a combination of factors. If they put in a flat eight tomorrow I don't think the world (i.e. those who actually buy 911's new from the manufactuer) would care. Amnd there will be electirc 911's. At the very least hybrid within a couple of years where your flat six might be a 1litre charge only version. And within a couple more years after that, all electric.



Sorry, I can't agree.

The 911 has had a flat-six engine for 54 years.

Turbo charging it or hybriding it is ok but lose the flat six and it will cease to be a 911.


Well ultimately that's between Porsche and their future consumers to decide. If Porsche put '911' on the back and buyers pay for them, then they're 911's.


That's the thing. I just can't see Porsche doing that.

When the Boxster and Cayman lost 2 pots they gained different names and there was no particular history or heritage associated with either of them.

The 911 has become an icon and has always had a rear mounted flat-six engine. If that changed then I'm convinced that the name would too.

Perhaps the 912 moniker would be resurrected. Dont know
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wasz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
If the 911 lost its flat six it wouldn't be a 911. Judge


If the 911 lost its air-cooled engine it wouldn't be a 911. Judge
 
  
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Niall996
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically one could argue that it doesn't need rear seats to be a 911! Although i think while there will always be dedicated 2 seater track versions, part of the essence of a 911 is thats it's fundamentally a two door 2+2. That you can see out of, drive to the shops in every day and still be as fast as most things out there, and maintain a rough equivalent of the overall silhouette. And be very premium while accessible. Other than that, most of the mechanical greasy bits hidden away are up for grabs.
 
  
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T8
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasz wrote:


If the 911 lost its air-cooled engine it wouldn't be a 911. Judge




Sorry, your 'judgement' was overturned 19 years ago. Grin
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911TEL
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
Niall996 wrote:


I don't think it has to have a flat six necessarily to be a 911. I don't think there is one single element that defines a 911. It's more a combination of factors. If they put in a flat eight tomorrow I don't think the world (i.e. those who actually buy 911's new from the manufactuer) would care. Amnd there will be electirc 911's. At the very least hybrid within a couple of years where your flat six might be a 1litre charge only version. And within a couple more years after that, all electric.



Sorry, I can't agree.

The 911 has had a flat-six engine for 54 years.

Turbo charging it or hybriding it is ok but lose the flat six and it will cease to be a 911.


Yeah

Flat six or nothing ......
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MisterCorn
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will stop being a 911 when Porsche in their wisdom decide it is no longer a 911. They decided it was a 911 to start with, they will decode when it stops being one.

MC
 
  
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Marky911
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Joined: 04 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it loses its cable throttle...

Very Happy Sorry, just joking.

I think to lose the flat six would be a big factor but I think it will one day.
And also if they keep edging the motor forward (or rotating it with the box) then it will be mid engined. Maybe not such a big deal as the handling will get better and better. On paper though to be mid engined rather than rear is a big step away from that 54 years of heritage.

As long as they sound great and drive great people will buy them.
Personally I like N/A engines and the death of N/A is in full swing now so anything newer than say a 991GT3 or Cayman GT4 probably won't appeal much to me. Not for my weekend car anyway.
 
  
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Niall996
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 911 will be 77 years old when they bring in the IC engine ban in 2040 in the UK. I'm sure most of Europe will do the same. It's unlikely Porsche will have two concurrent mainstream 911 models so it will probably mean a worldwide EV only 911. Even for track cars, there's no point in making a petrol version in that scenario and EV would probaly be quicker anyway. So on the basis of a flat 6 petrol engine being an essential prerequisite, the 911 has only 22 and a bit years left. But in reality, no one would spend so much on a car after 2030 that will be effectively illegal within ten years and already unresellable.

So the all electic 911 has to arrive sometime in the 2020's. Which means within ten years more or less. So if a 911 has to have a petrol flat six, it's over. So Total911, 911UK, and all the worlds 911 based media will have to be retro/classic sites as there willl be no new 911's by the flat six defintion. And all petrol 911's will be certified historical classic cars for museums, special permission drives or just ornaments in a garage. People wont be so differentiating between one verion of a flat six and another. They'll all be otherwordly to the future generations.

Do we sell and get out now while we still can or hold on for the IC engine armageddon and hope our little sports cars are of some value to someone when that day comes?

Or just embrace the likelihood that just as Porsche have always made the worlds best sports car for the money with the best packaging and the best everyday usability, they'll somehow construct something gorgeous and desirable that somehow uses electricity in a fabulous way and it will be the 911 of its day. Unless the world actually turns completely away from the bizarre notion of sports cars completely.

In that context, it makes you think a bit about the infinity of petty squables over the years about headlight shapes and cable throttles!

And remember, your IMS only has a few more years to survive Very Happy I hope Hartech et al are getting their EV knowledge up to scratch.
 
  
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MisterCorn
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is a slight misunderstanding of the ban in there Niall996. The ban is on selling new petrol engine cars. Not on selling second hand ones or on driving them. Big difference.

MC
 
  
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Zorro
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
It will stop being a 911 when Porsche in their wisdom decide it is no longer a 911. They decided it was a 911 to start with, they will decode when it stops being one.

MC


Think you will find it was a 901 to start with, but Peugeot weren't having it, hence it got changed to 911. Some of the older engine part number start 901.
 
  
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MisterCorn
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zorro wrote:
MisterCorn wrote:
It will stop being a 911 when Porsche in their wisdom decide it is no longer a 911. They decided it was a 911 to start with, they will decode when it stops being one.

MC


Think you will find it was a 901 to start with, but Peugeot weren't having it, hence it got changed to 911. Some of the older engine part number start 901.


That is as I understand it too, but I still think it was Porsche rather than Peugeot who first gave the car the 911 name, although I must confess it is a point of Porsche history I hadn't taken too much interest in up until now.

MC
 
  
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New997buyer
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:


When the Boxster and Cayman lost 2 pots they gained different names and there was no particular history or heritage associated with either of them.



Except for the flat four cylinder 718 on show from the 1950's in the Porsche museum?

Or the flat four mid engined 914?

Or the flat four cylinder 356?

Yes then I agree, apart from those it was a complete break from the past Wink?

T8 wrote:


The 911 has become an icon and has always had a rear mounted flat-six engine. If that changed then I'm convinced that the name would too.


As others have said, it's all down to the buying public. I suspect we on here care far more about these things than the vast majority who order them new Question

T8 wrote:

Perhaps the 912 moniker would be resurrected. Dont know


That performed a particular marketing need currently and very successfully occupied. By Caymans, Boxsters and so on Thumb
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wasz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Few cars can trace their recognisable traits so far back. I struggle to think of any others apart from a Land Rover? A Range Rover I suppose too although not as old.

Most cars are completely different with a new generation.

The 911 has evolved rather than ever being replaced.

Each new model was a clear evolution from the last. The 996 was a big jump but still retained enough of the previous gen DNA to be accepted as a 911.

So are you saying even if everything else remains - silhouette, suspension, performance, interior, but the power plant dropped a couple of cylinder then you would not accept it as a 911? Is that a jump too far?
 
  
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New997buyer
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reflecting more on your question Terry, I suspect to some it won't be. Just as there are some on here who think the 996 is the devil's work Dont know

But my hunch is they'll always be the niche and the minority. As long as people want the 911, whatever that means to them, it'll be popular.

For me it represents the most usable sports car there is. Whether negotiating motorways, autobahns, autoroutes, A roads and up hill hairpin B roads on a brutal slope. It's the car that can do all that, with luggage, and still work the next day. As illustrated when me and a fella' coming the other way in a 458 Snyder said as we passed on a single track road near Lochinven said as we both lowered our windows for a friendly chat "At least one of us still has his front splitter". Followed by "I'm knackered!"

As long as it's still the super car you can use every day it'll still be a 911 IMHO thumbsup
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: When would a 911 stop being a 911? Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
This started on a different thread but (imo) is worthy of discussion in its own right.

Thoughts?


wasz wrote:


will be the same story when the 911 loses its flat six.

sure whatever they come up with will be worthy, just different.



If the 911 lost its flat six it wouldn't be a 911. Judge


thumbsup

Rear Engine Flat Six as it's main power plant makes it a 911

anything else is not a 911

Judge
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