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Simon W
Suzuka


Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1240
Location: North London

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So......
Ive just come back from viewing the car, and it does seem like a really good one. Very genuine seller and a superb history file with detailed records going back the entire way.
OPC and then Northway, JAZ, Charles Ivey etc. Lots of work carried out, including a bore scope inspection at around 80k.

It seems like a great car - BUT
It has 14 owners! FOURTEEN!
I'm a 'buy on condition' kind of guy, but 14 owners!
The history includes details of every one of them, and the first owner had the car for 9 days! Then Edinburgh OPC is registered twice, then about a new owner every year. I just don't get it. The car's great, but I don't know whether to be really put off by this. It's perception, but that just feels like a hit on value.

What do you think?
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segart
Monza


Joined: 28 Jan 2015
Posts: 241
Location: Jersey - Britains South Sea Isle


PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fourteen owners, but at least two are traders, and can you confirm that all the rest are individuals?
Also quite a few types will buy a 911 just to tick a box or scratch an itch. I would not worry about the number of owners, but I would drill down into the service history.
Rick
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Dammit
Österreich


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 944



PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^I concur. My car has had a load of owners, the guy I bought it from did (literally) 500 miles in the car before selling it to me.

As long as the condition is good then number of owners is just that - a number.

When it's concern is if it's a sign of people buying it, discovering it's horrific secret and punting it on sharpish before it becomes a gateway to hell/the engine blows itself up so impressively it leaves only a metallic fog in the engine bay.
 
  
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trig_112
Monza


Joined: 11 Apr 2014
Posts: 168
Location: Northants


PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it not a bit of the nature of the car in regards to owners, buy it, enjoy it for a summer then move on to something else before you lose too much in depreciation?
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Past Porsche: 1983 924
 
  
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Griffter
Silverstone


Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 132



PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

14 owners in 14 months would put me off. 14 owners in 14 years, not so much. How long did the last owner (or two) have it?
 
  
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thecarfixer
Trainee


Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Posts: 99



PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you planning on keeping the car, or punting it on after a quick fling?

That will have a bearing on your decision - if you want to keep it forever and a day, then who cares how many owners, buy on condition and if it stacks up, it's a good buy. Use it as a negotiating point.

If you're selling in 12 months, then it won't help the sale, although if I were buying I wouldn't care as long as the car looks right, goes right, and hasn't lost scores of paperwork in the intervening ownership changes.
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 11406
Location: 4,000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it's only really had 11 owners over 14 years. I'd still be getting a bore scope done even though it's had one 15k miles ago if you decide to buy. Then get a LTT fitted ASAP.
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 11406
Location: 4,000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bit of a curb ball, but GT4 is selling his 997 for £18.5k. Not a 996 C4S but a great price and in your ball park: http://911uk.com/ads_item.php?id=7797


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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30196
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash7 wrote:
alex yates wrote:
As I stated in my 1st post.


You also stated that if an IMS has gone past 50k 'It's not going to fail' - Its a bold statement and one you can't guarantee.


Although not possible to guarantee (much like a new bearing can't be gutanteed not to go), the statistics imply the probability drops quickly and monotonically the further from 50k the unit has passed.

Obviously, at some point, normal wear and tear will catch up with it (bathtub probability etc)
 
  
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Bluebird911
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 356



PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT4 wrote:
crash7 wrote:
alex yates wrote:
As I stated in my 1st post.


You also stated that if an IMS has gone past 50k 'It's not going to fail' - Its a bold statement and one you can't guarantee.


Although not possible to guarantee (much like a new bearing can't be gutanteed not to go), the statistics imply the probability drops quickly and monotonically the further from 50k the unit has passed.

Obviously, at some point, normal wear and tear will catch up with it (bathtub probability etc)


GT4 has brought some clarity to this discussion!

The advice given thus far has ignored the effect of wear on the bearing components which follow the 'bathtub' probability curve. The bearing will fail at some point in the failure / wear phase of the curve! As it relies on being bathed with engine oil, you can prolong its life probability by ensuring a supply of clean oil through regular oil changes and the use of good quality filters. It will still need to be regularly inspected to asses the wear.

Cautious engineering practice is to replace bearings when access allows - I've lost the number of times I have replaced a clutch thrust bearing when replacing a clutch when it strictly wasn't necessary. Most clutch kits have them as part of the service kit. This is where many are coming from in this discussion and I can understand that.

The Lone Ranger's experience highlights statistical variances which questions the significance of 50k miles. Where did that figure come from and what is the duty cycle? 50k driven up hills in Snowdonia in 2nd gear, or 50k of motorway driving in sixth gear!

Statistics can only 'help' you make decisions as they are based on likelihood which themselves contain variances.

Unfortunately, IMS is the 'silent' death. There is no notification. The best advice is to have the IMS inspected by an expert (like Hartech and other respected Indys) whenever the opportunity presents itself like a clutch change. Only a physical assessment of its condition can determine if a replacement is required - with certainty!

As with most things, this is a personal choice and if you have a cautious approach to engineering practice.
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 11406
Location: 4,000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once you start thinking about wear instead of failure, that then opens an even bigger can of worms as this applies to a majority of engine parts that can be just as severe if they fail. What if a chain snaps, or valve drops, or oil pump fails.......the list is endless. Get down that road and you may as well save your money and don't drive. But statistically the chance of those happening are very slim....just like an ims bearing going pop past 50k.
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Poker2009
Hockenheim


Joined: 09 Sep 2009
Posts: 729
Location: London


PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the outer seal removed during a clutch change at 40k miles in 2014, as from what I read at the time, this was thing to do. I was told by the garage the bearing was fine (no play), and was already letting "some" oil in.

Fortunately so far, the car is at around 54k miles, and it has been fine.

However, the last post I read from Baz, was that even taking the cover off to inspect the bearing is a risk, and should really just be left alone. (Personally, I prefer knowing the outer seal is removed, and the bearing is getting the oil it needs - and am probably just lucky it was done without causing any problems)

Just to add, I think putting an after market bearing such as LNG one is probably the worst thing anyone could do.
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