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coullstar
Montreal


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 528
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject: Traction control or lack off Reply with quote

I'm back looking at 996s and with current budget im looking at earlier or higher mileage cars. Would love another C4s but that's not going to happen.

Anyway I recently wrote off my 986 Boxster S recently odue to road conditions, diesel and you could argue lack to talent. Now I wasn't mucking around or driving aggressivly so I was surprised a by how quickly it went all wrong and ended up under a truck.

I have to admit this is playing in my mind a bit as I've never had a road crash before in 20+ years of driving. Therefore the question I have is that a lot of the 996 I've seen don't have TC so I'm wondering how they behave in the wet and how progressive they are when the rear does let go? Those with C2's I'm just interested as to how often do you find your TC working on the car.

It wont stop be buying the right car & I know throttle works both ways plus there's loads of other factors but I was really surprised at how quickly it went wrong with the boxster.
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thecarfixer
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Joined: 03 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a '98 C2. I don't have TC, and I've had the car give a proper wiggle in the damp when being a bit of a spanner with the throttle (provoked) on fairly crappy tyres.

I've also provoked it massively by coming in ridiculously hot into a roundabout, prompting plenty of weight transfer and getting that engine mass moving.

Both have been under what one would argue is fair provocation, and I've only ever done it on wide empty roads.

Given that a Boxster is much more benign (until you get *right* to the limit, and then the low polar moment of inertia will bite) and generally much more neutral on the limit and you managed to stuff it, I'd invest in some driver training if you buy a 996.

PSM is supposed to be pretty good, the early 'TC' less so as it's not as intelligent nor able to control the car - PSM has full control of the throttle, independent braking on each wheel and is a pretty sophisticated stability management system. TC cuts the ignition/fuelling (the throttle body is mechanically actuated so it can't feather the throttle) in a fairly abrupt way so is more of a blunt instrument.

The 996 is a very fine handling machine due to the Weissach rear, nice responsive engine, and it has lots of grip. Can't bend the laws of physics though.
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 12815
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like a narrow bodied C4 would suit you. A bit more peace of mind than a C2 and far cheaper to buy than a C4S.
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 11019
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I think the key word in your problem was 'Diesel'. Once you hit that stuff it can flumax the most sophisticated cars as it turns the tyre traction into teflon.

Terry's got a point though - all 996 C4 cars are fitted with PSM as standard and you also have the peace of mind that you have a basic AWD system and a slightly heavier front end.
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coullstar
Montreal


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 528
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found the Boxster fairly easy to provoke at round abouts etc in the wet if I wanted to, it seemed quite progressive and controllable however in this instance is just snapped without any pushing.

I realise the diesel and wet were major factors, it gave me quite a scare however the car was damn good fun and I'm keen to have something similar.

The 4s was definitely less inclined to breakaway for sure. Thing is I'd like as simple a car as possible to possibly use and learn from so can the TC be turned off if required if I happen to find one with it?
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PSM switch is on the dash and can be easily overridden.
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ragpicker
Paul Ricard


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
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Location: North East England


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the boxster unstickable in the dry but very hard to control in the wet if it lets go. With its central weight it spins freely if it breaks traction so I always drive with respect in the wet in it. Anyone who knows me understands I usually drive like a hooligan 99% of the time so for me to show restraint in the boxster proves how snappy they can be. Been bitten several times in the wet on track and on road. Lift off oversteer in the wet can be horrendous in them!

Modern 911's (996 onwards) are FAR more easy to control when they lose grip IMO so I think you would be just fine in a C2 with or without TC. I reckon a lot of the VC's in the C4's/4S's and turbos will have become knackered by now too so you can't be guaranteed that you'll be getting 4wd in one of those.

Alternatively look for a 987 which will come with PSM as standard? Question
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coullstar
Montreal


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 528
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks that's good to hear from someone that has experience. Yeah I'm after another 911, the boxster was ace but really need a 4 seater as I'll have to sell the Corrado so needs to take as many people.

Agree the boxster was brilliant in the dry.
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911tom
Albert Park


Joined: 22 May 2012
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Location: Buckinghamshire


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with alex tc/Psm won't save you if you hit something slippery and the tyre have no traction. I've never really noticed tc doing anything other than cut the throttle which can be achieved by lifting your right foot. I had a moment recently in the atom. Was driver error, completely misjudged a corner and ended up facing the wrong direction. No traction control in the atom. Not sure tc would have been able to help much, I was just going too quick.

Come to think of it my turbo now has no traction control, is rwd and over 800hp. Being rwd I find gives a lot more feel and warning than awd. Generally if you have a moment in a awd care it ain't gonna be pretty.

As for you op I think you've just been unlucky that the accident happened but actually very lucky it was not fatal! Sounds like you've had a few quick cars and only one accident in 20 odd years so you are not doing too badly. Did you ever notice the Psm cutting in in your old c4s? How much you relied on that will tell you if you need it or not.
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plynchy
Hockenheim


Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 721
Location: Teesside


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ragpicker wrote:
I find the boxster unstickable in the dry but very hard to control in the wet if it lets go. With its central weight it spins freely if it breaks traction so I always drive with respect in the wet in it. Anyone who knows me understands I usually drive like a hooligan 99% of the time so for me to show restraint in the boxster proves how snappy they can be. Been bitten several times in the wet on track and on road. Lift off oversteer in the wet can be horrendous in them!

Modern 911's (996 onwards) are FAR more easy to control when they lose grip IMO so I think you would be just fine in a C2 with or without TC. I reckon a lot of the VC's in the C4's/4S's and turbos will have become knackered by now too so you can't be guaranteed that you'll be getting 4wd in one of those.

Alternatively look for a 987 which will come with PSM as standard? Question


Got bitten VERY hard by my 986 S at Oulton Park many years ago, lost control incredibly quickly on a damp track, lift of oversteer/grass/off camber resulted in a bit of a mess. Had been doing track days for 10 years at that point.

Have an awful lot of respect for the Turbo as a result. Surprised
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seeforez
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jan 2016
Posts: 1452
Location: up norf


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My C2 was very unpredictable in the wet and unless you drove the like the vicar it could catch you out even at low speeds in the wet at roundabouts or tight bends - and the issue was on michelins it wasn't progressive it was all or nothing when it did go - where as on cheaper tyres i found it always went a bit here and there first so was actually maybe safer as you were expecting it to go!
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coullstar
Montreal


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 528
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the PSM on the 4s cut in a couple of times but that was only when really pushed or in very cold conditions.
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wasz
Kyalami


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1753


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 996 is nothing like early "pendulum" 911s

If you feel its unsafe in the wet or whatever then get your geo checked and some new tyres, there is something wrong.

The 996 is the most stable rwd car I've ever had, including much lower powered saloon cars.

So much traction. I've never had tricky situations at road speeds, only on the track when pushing harder than I ever would on the road.

I think your boxster problem was "diesel" as alex says.
 
  
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Martin996RSR
Silverstone


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 100



PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 1998 C2 with an LSD. It has traction control which I frequently turn off. I find it a handful on the track, despite having raced single seaters in the past. It's very keen to oversteer on corner entry when driven at 10/10ths. This is related to tired dampers and I'll be sorting it when funds allow.

On the road in the wet it will drift predictably and reliably with the TC turned off. It's not as easy as an MX5 or an M3, but with practice you can drift around roundabouts all day long. I rarely drift it in the dry because it's got so much tyre on the road you have to be going very fast and there is no real room for cockup. It's also much harder on the car.

If you want to drift your 996 you need to dial out as much of the understeer from the suspension as you can, and find a consequence free environment to learn in.
 
  
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edh
Newbie


Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 22



PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm very impressed how much traction my MY99 C2 (LSD & TC) has, even on damp surfaces with old S02's. At road speeds it's never caused me any problems (I'm not a drift king though... Smile )

My 986S was a pig on its first trackday, when I discovered it would push in the bends with the slightest throttle. A decent geo (getting the rear wheels pointing the right way..) + new m030 suspension sorted that. I ran it on a square setup (225/45/17) & was very pleased with it as a fill-in track car while I was fixing my broken 944.

I was wary of it to start with but found it very benign - even when it got a bit out of shape on the track it seemed to be better at correcting itself than I was.. Smile Seemed to let go fairly slowly as well.

I've always found Porsches very sensitive to geo and tyre pressures & when they are right, the handling is great.
 
  
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searider
Trainee


Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 91
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coullstar wrote:
Thanks that's good to hear from someone that has experience. Yeah I'm after another 911, the boxster was ace but really need a 4 seater as I'll have to sell the Corrado so needs to take as many people.

Agree the boxster was brilliant in the dry.


TC and LSD in my '97 C2.
The light in the dash flashes occasionally in the wet when pushing on / provoking it.
TC can be turned off - but not tried it off yet!
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Mac996t
Nürburgring


Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Posts: 446


2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Young lad at work recently bought a sporty mid engine car, he saw one he liked, I advised him to get the next model year which came with stability but he was so excited he bought it anyway, fast forward 2 months and he was coming into work telling all his opposite lock stories and how amazingly well the car handled until the day he didn't turn up after spinning it on a gentle curve and going up a bank backwards. He doesn't understand how it happened!

That's the thing about stability, it saves you during those "don't know what happened" moments LOL. I'm glad my Turbo has it and it's probably why the insurance is so cheap!!

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Moemonney
Newbie


Joined: 08 Aug 2017
Posts: 1



PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 99 996 with no traction control. At one point I swerved to avoid hitting a wooden box on the highway and ended up spining out. This happened while a 997 Carrera and a 991 Turbo were in front of me and also swerved around the object. They told me both of their cars had PSM kick in.

I believe I would not have spun out if I had TC or PSM. Now I value the use of TC and PSM and although I installed an aftermarket LSD in my car I still think ill get one with either PSM or TC in my next Porsche purchase since I only track my car 4 or 5 times a year.
 
  
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wasz
Kyalami


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1753


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the TC not really basic though? i.e. the type that just cuts power. So nowhere near as useful as PSM and a decent driver can easily beat it.

The PSM is worth having, but MY 98 99 C2 don't have that option...

Its a trade off when buying - early 3.4 c2 with cable throttle and no PSM VS later car (or c4) with PSM safety net but electronic throttle.
 
  
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coullstar
Montreal


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 528
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep that's what Im going through. I was really lucky not to be hurt and Im not saying having TC would have prevented the accident however I do believe it would have helped for sure.

With a young family it is playing on my mind that Id like that option or safety net with the ability to switch off if required.

PSM does make sense IMO, Its one of those things that helps us average drivers from spearing off into the tree in situations like the one described above. That more where Im looking at it really but ultimately it wont stop me buying the right car if it came up.
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