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Ishay
Trainee


Joined: 28 Aug 2015
Posts: 62



PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject: Why 'only' 480 BHP in the 997 Turbo Reply with quote

I've read a bit about the 997.1 Turbo being easy to upgrade. I think I've read that 600+ is possible with little more than an extreme exhaust and remap, 700+ with bigger turbos, intercoolers, etc.

My question is whether
A) this is wrong and it's much harder to ring these numbers out of the car
B) it is that easy but Porsche didn't for reliability and emissions reasons, only
Or C) it is that easy, but for marketing reasons they left that much on the table for S and GT2 variants

Or some of all of the above...
 
  
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Martian
Magny-Cours


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 2692
Location: Bury St. Edmunds

2007 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It came out 11 years ago, and in 2006, 480 horses was quite respectable.
 
  
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2286
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nine Excellence do the 9e28 package which includes new turbos and intercoolers and that makes around 640PS if I remember correctly on the Gen 1 cars.
With the Gen 2 I think you get more power but of course you pay more for a Gen 2. The 9e28 is also supposed to be reliable (and runs on pump fuel) which has been confirmed by two people I know who have had it done, i'll be doing this next year Smile

I think for 700PS on a Gen 1 car it is possible but for it to be reliable you need to start changing engine internals.
 
  
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Disco
Estoril


Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3580
Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that in simple terms the marketing department decided that it was enough, it left plenty of headroom to subsequently offer more powerful variations with minimal significant changes (i.e. development costs) and possibly that there was more profit to be made that way (they make a lot of Turbos, so what to an owner would equate to a marginal spend for a tangible upgrade equates to millions in the bank for free at the manufacturers end).
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Ishay
Trainee


Joined: 28 Aug 2015
Posts: 62



PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm certainly more inclined to believe the marketing department angle than that 480 was a lot 10 years ago. There are remappers claiming 590 from a software only mod (softronics) so the platform was clearly not limited by the engineering available at the time.

My friend has a V8 Espirit and we've talked a lot about how that was detuned from 500+ because the gearbox couldn't handle it. I think as wondering if there were any similar weak links? Perhaps not
 
  
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Martian
Magny-Cours


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 2692
Location: Bury St. Edmunds

2007 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuners inventing figures is quite/very common. With a manual car, the standard clutch won't take more than about 540BHP/530ftlb (720Nm) and this I can confirm personally with my map. My mild map around this figure resulted in the clutch slipping on occasions, when the exhaust was fitted and freed up a few more, the clutch would slip a lot of the time. An uprated clutch was fitted and now it's perfect.

So any tuner offering >540 for a manual car with standard clutch is 'aving you on. Pretty sure member 'Isysman' has a standard clutch with a DMS '630BHP' map, that just confirms the tuners exaggeration.

Tiptronics are obviously different though.
 
  
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easternjets
Suzuka


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
Posts: 1071
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also people keep saying these cars are 10 years old, when in actual fact they're probably 15 years old in that they were on the drawing board being developed then put into production.
15 years ago 500 bhp was pretty impressive, now we are talking about cars with 1000 bhp as if it's what we 'expect' from a Supercar.
Also I think a gen 1 997, with 480 bhp was considered to be at the top end of what standard road cars would be running to keep them reasonably safe and not have people picking them selves out of the scenery every time they floor it!
I think it's testament to Porsche that they put such a good engine, the mezger, into their top end flagship car.
I drove the 997 gen 2 turbo that was for sale in March at Redline, that was running at I think, 670 bhp and whilst it did go really well, it certainly had an appetite for V power, I had the readout showing 9 mpg and I wasn't going nuts in it, not brave enough in a car I didn't know!
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Last edited by easternjets on Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Martian
Magny-Cours


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 2692
Location: Bury St. Edmunds

2007 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dyslexic easternjets?

Mezger and V-Power! Very Happy
 
  
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Ishay
Trainee


Joined: 28 Aug 2015
Posts: 62



PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks that's a much more helpful answer to be fair. So the clutch is the first weak link once one starts tuning a manual 997.1tt.

Clutch replacements are much more expensive on turbos anyway right? I think I've seen £2k at an Indy.

Is the manual gearbox itself up to it? What about the turbos?
 
  
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Norfolk & Idea
Österreich


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 910
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the gen 1 will also need turbo and intercooler upgrade in conjunction with a remap.
The gen 2 is pretty well lined up in this regard with 997GT2RS intercoolers and turbos as OE. That was my thought train when I beefed mine up to GT2RS figures. And believe me, it's enough!
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RJW1881
Monza


Joined: 10 Aug 2015
Posts: 216
Location: Holbeach

2007 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be interested to hear some 1st hand feedback on the 997.1 manual clutch in stock form with bigger power.

Mine is supposedly running somewhere between 550-600bhp with re-map & exhaust and I have experienced clutch slip 4 times in the last year. Each time has been months apart and only for a second or two, I assumed that the clutch was on the way out then it will go months with no issue?

Needless to say each time it happened the car was being "pushed" for example a track day at Goodwood, a V-max event and a high speed European motorway run.

Is it time for an uprated clutch, if so which one?
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Martian
Magny-Cours


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 2692
Location: Bury St. Edmunds

2007 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My clutch (10k miles use) slipped every now and again with a 530ish remap. When the exhaust was fitted and freed up a little bit more, it was slipping quite a lot. Replaced with an OEM Sachs 890Nm one, all fine ever since. They are a bit more on/off though but you soon get used to it.
 
  
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RJW1881
Monza


Joined: 10 Aug 2015
Posts: 216
Location: Holbeach

2007 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers for that, it's in at dove house on tuesday for a sevice and MOT. I'll get them to price me one up.
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Buell XB12 - carbon/ exhaust/ remap/ lowered
Disco 4 - daily
VXR8 - supercharged/ remap/ lowered/ exhaust
 
  
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2286
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norfolk & Idea wrote:
I think the gen 1 will also need turbo and intercooler upgrade in conjunction with a remap.
The gen 2 is pretty well lined up in this regard with 997GT2RS intercoolers and turbos as OE. That was my thought train when I beefed mine up to GT2RS figures. And believe me, it's enough!


Yes i believe if you want to make GT2RS power I do not think the Gen1 turbos and intercoolers will cut it.
 
  
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DaveH911
Montreal


Joined: 24 Jan 2014
Posts: 596
Location: Derby

2006 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RJW1881 wrote:
I would be interested to hear some 1st hand feedback on the 997.1 manual clutch in stock form with bigger power.

Mine is supposedly running somewhere between 550-600bhp with re-map & exhaust and I have experienced clutch slip 4 times in the last year. Each time has been months apart and only for a second or two, I assumed that the clutch was on the way out then it will go months with no issue?

Needless to say each time it happened the car was being "pushed" for example a track day at Goodwood, a V-max event and a high speed European motorway run.

Is it time for an uprated clutch, if so which one?


After being mapped, I changed mine to a GT2 clutch. No issues since just a very sharp biting point.
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easternjets
Suzuka


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
Posts: 1071
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought the Gen II's were easier to boost up the power on than the Gen 1's?

That Gen II I drove had had a mental amount of money spent on it, I think the new inter-coolers were nearly 10k!

A Kline and a remap with some moderate engine mods should get you up to nearly 600 bhp, don't know what the PDK boxes are rated to but they reckon the tip box is good up to 900 plus bhp!
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2286
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

easternjets wrote:
Thought the Gen II's were easier to boost up the power on than the Gen 1's?


They are Thumb you have to spend about £10K more on a Gen1 to get near the power of a mapped Gen2, the Gen 2 doesn't require turbo or intercooler upgrades.
 
  
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Boba fett
Albert Park


Joined: 14 May 2015
Posts: 1713



PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My findings are:

Map an exhaust should see about 540ish bhp then the VTG's get very hot so you can get more out of them, but its intercoolers and clutch time, some have achieved around 590bhp. then to get up to and over 700 bhp its hybrids and injectors +

The Standard Mezger engine is good for 900bhp unless this is an old wife's tale and the manual and Tip gearbox is also very strong.

Any Turbo car is tunable, and there is more to be had from most manufactures, its easy just up the boost, its keeping thngs cool, with a fine line what the engine can take without detonation is the issue.
 
  
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isysman
Zolder


Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Posts: 5447
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martian wrote:
Tuners inventing figures is quite/very common. With a manual car, the standard clutch won't take more than about 540BHP/530ftlb (720Nm) and this I can confirm personally with my map. My mild map around this figure resulted in the clutch slipping on occasions, when the exhaust was fitted and freed up a few more, the clutch would slip a lot of the time. An uprated clutch was fitted and now it's perfect.

So any tuner offering >540 for a manual car with standard clutch is 'aving you on. Pretty sure member 'Isysman' has a standard clutch with a DMS '630BHP' map, that just confirms the tuners exaggeration.

Tiptronics are obviously different though.


DMS never offered 630hp. That 620 figure was a result of their rolling road testing after installing all the parts.
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2286
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isysman wrote:
Martian wrote:
Tuners inventing figures is quite/very common. With a manual car, the standard clutch won't take more than about 540BHP/530ftlb (720Nm) and this I can confirm personally with my map. My mild map around this figure resulted in the clutch slipping on occasions, when the exhaust was fitted and freed up a few more, the clutch would slip a lot of the time. An uprated clutch was fitted and now it's perfect.

So any tuner offering >540 for a manual car with standard clutch is 'aving you on. Pretty sure member 'Isysman' has a standard clutch with a DMS '630BHP' map, that just confirms the tuners exaggeration.

Tiptronics are obviously different though.


DMS never offered 630hp. That 620 figure was a result of their rolling road testing after installing all the parts.


They did not change the turbo's though right?
 
  
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