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markturner1960
Monza


Joined: 26 Nov 2016
Posts: 150
Location: London UK

2003 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject: GT3 values Reply with quote

Probably been done to death many times, and it's all conjecture anyway, but thinking of possibly trading up and I wondered what you guys thought about the market for the GT cars over the next 3 -4 years? I am talking the standard cars, not the RS variants....

Thinking in particular about the 991.1 and to what degree you see them holding their value.

Any sage input appreciated, rgds
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wizard993
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....buy any good 996/997 GT for the right price, take care of it and it's almost depreciation proof(IMO)
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markturner1960
Monza


Joined: 26 Nov 2016
Posts: 150
Location: London UK

2003 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there anywhere you can track values of these, for example Glass guide equiv website or anything?

What about mileage ? Any idea of effect on the value per 1000 miles etc?

I agree, should be depreciation proof, but wondered about the 991 model, there is some lurking issue around the engines I believe, cheers
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 12748
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Price guides are totally useless for checking current values or tracking historical figures of any 911.

The only time they will be close is when trading in to a non-Porsche specialist. Smile

Porsche Specialists and individuals that have followed advertised prices over a period of time are the only ones that would give you an accurate picture of the past. They might also be able to indicate likely future trends.
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markturner1960
Monza


Joined: 26 Nov 2016
Posts: 150
Location: London UK

2003 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Say I brought a low mileage (5,000) mile 2014 car for approx £130K...

kept it for 4 years and did 3-4000 miles annually....

What do you think the value would be in 4 years? Based on the last 2 -3 years performance?

Just trying to work out likely finance best and worst cases......
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jkeith
Nürburgring


Joined: 22 Jan 2010
Posts: 437
Location: Jesmond


PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you said earlier Mark, it's conjecture.

I respectfully suggest it's about how comfortable you are with the risk/reward graph. Looking back at the historical values is likely to produce an accurate slope but future events are outside the control of everyone.

Moving from a 996 to a 997 is something I considered but ruled it out on affordability and the technical differences (less electronic driver aids on the 996 which is what I wanted).

You could do a lot worse than running your own database on gt3 prices. A simple spreadsheet will be a very useful tool.

So is it more a case of 'am I comfortable spending an extra £60 to £70k?' for a car that is going to follow a very similar slope on a graph?

It's not easy to make these decisions but you are only here once!

Good luck, Keith.
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jotaking
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 01 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was considering a swap from my 997 turbo into a 991.1 GT3.

I have been tracking prices for the past 6 months.

The lowest I saw a 991 GT3 for was 115K. Guards Red, POV Spec with 4K on the clock. This was a Porsche retail car. It jumped back up to 120K within a month and disappeared. Also, OPC Edinburgh hiked the price of their 120K 991.1 GT3 to 125K? The "hike" was at the same time as the .2 launch? Coincidence? Or was it an internal memo by Porsche to bolster pricing following the launch of the new improved .2?

IMO prices on all GT3 (non RS) have increased across the board by 10-15K. The 991.1 now start at 125k and end at 150K.

I think short term, the 991.2 release may have an effect on prices later this year and possibly see them settle at 115 - 140???

Long term....

From my reading on here and Rennlist, the 991.1 GT3 does have some issues relating to engine wear etc.

Therefore, IMO the 991.1 GT3 value will be totally dependant on FPSH and continued Porsche warranty. Anything outside of this will lose a premium due to the unknown risk.

That said, IF, in the near future we start to see cars with 50-60K track miles with no issues then this risk factor may decrease and align itself with the rest of the GT3 range.

Depreciation wise....I think all GT3's are solid. That said, to keep it real, I would budget a 15K drop over 5 years. Anything less would be a bonus!

If you decide to go for a 991 GT3 you need to factor in 1.4K per annum for a Porsche Warranty for the duration of ownership.

So 5 years ownership: -

Man maths time: -

Warranty £7K
Depreciation £15K?

I am fully prepared to be shot down in flames!

Discuss.....
 
  
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Johnd52
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 340
Location: North Yorkshire

2011 Porsche Cayman

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a tough one. As Keith says, building up your own database is the thing to do but there are plenty of other factors to consider.

1 Good cars don't hang around, so you have to be prepared to act quickly and sometimes risk a deposit to secure an option
2 Comparing like with like is difficult as there are so many expensive options that may or may not be included, ceramics, buckets etc.
3 How you manage mileage. The current market does not expect these cars to be driven.

I would love to trade up to a GT3, but also want to keep doing 10k per year. A £70k 997 at 5O,000 miles now would be a £55k car at 80,000 in three years. A £130k car starting at 15,000 miles would be Sub £100k with the same added mileage. Substitute your own numbers and then reckon that a McLaren 12C can be had for little over £100k...........and so it goes round
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kas750
Paul Ricard


Joined: 31 Mar 2013
Posts: 3277
Location: lancashire

2006 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jotaking wrote:


The lowest I saw a 991 GT3 for was 115K. Guards Red, POV Spec with 4K on the clock. This was a Porsche retail car. It jumped back up to 120K within a month and disappeared. Also, OPC Edinburgh hiked the price of their 120K 991.1 GT3 to 125K? The "hike" was at the same time as the .2 launch? Coincidence? Or was it an internal memo by Porsche to bolster pricing following the launch of the new improved .2?

IMO prices on all GT3 (non RS) have increased across the board by 10-15K. The 991.1 now start at 125k and end at 150K.

I think short term, the 991.2 release may have an effect on prices later this year and possibly see them settle at 115 - 140???

Long term....

From my reading on here and Rennlist, the 991.1 GT3 does have some issues relating to engine wear etc.

Therefore, IMO the 991.1 GT3 value will be totally dependant on FPSH and continued Porsche warranty. Anything outside of this will lose a premium due to the unknown risk.

That said, IF, in the near future we start to see cars with 50-60K track miles with no issues then this risk factor may decrease and align itself with the rest of the GT3 range.

Depreciation wise....I think all GT3's are solid. That said, to keep it real, I would budget a 15K drop over 5 years. Anything less would be a bonus!

If you decide to go for a 991 GT3 you need to factor in 1.4K per annum for a Porsche Warranty for the duration of ownership.

So 5 years ownership: -

Man maths time: -

Warranty £7K
Depreciation £15K?

I am fully prepared to be shot down in flames!

Discuss.....

Spot on! Thumb
 
  
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Gooner
Newbie


Joined: 11 Feb 2013
Posts: 26


2003 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Skool rules!!!
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Frenchmeister
Suzuka


Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 1071
Location: Beautiful Cumbria.

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget the math godammit, if you want one buy one and love it, it will,more than likely hold money, but if not enjoy it for what it is.
Too much fannying about about values, my 997C2S gen 1 is epic, if it goes bang I will have to find the money to fix it, I will then have a a pretty much bullet proof classic 911 for not much more than 30 grand all in,a high spec Golf GTI will cost more to buy.
If you are going to be precious about value why bother, it is a car to buy and enjoy.
A member on here has thrashed his GT3 around just about every track in Europe and I would say more than had his money worth......good on him.
That's why Porsche created the things in the first place.
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DerbyJim
Montreal


Joined: 25 May 2014
Posts: 584
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frenchmeister wrote:
Forget the math godammit, if you want one buy one and love it, it will,more than likely hold money, but if not enjoy it for what it is.
Too much fannying about about values, my 997C2S gen 1 is epic, if it goes bang I will have to find the money to fix it, I will then have a a pretty much bullet proof classic 911 for not much more than 30 grand all in,a high spec Golf GTI will cost more to buy.
If you are going to be precious about value why bother, it is a car to buy and enjoy.
A member on here has thrashed his GT3 around just about every track in Europe and I would say more than had his money worth......good on him.
That's why Porsche created the things in the first place.


Amen to that brother!

Gen 1 is probably a good deal at the moment. Amazing car for the money and one of the best driving and sounding cars for the money in today's market.

I keep looking at a GT3, very, very nearly traded in last month but it was a 991.1 so PDK only. I then thought "hold on, I'm compromising what I want because Porsche won't sell me a new one..." so stuff em, I'll keep my C4S for a while longer!
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NXI20
Approved Trader


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3223
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frenchmeister wrote:
If you are going to be precious about value why bother, it is a car to buy and enjoy.
A member on here has thrashed his GT3 around just about every track in Europe and I would say more than had his money worth......good on him.
That's why Porsche created the things in the first place.


That'd be me then Wink It just clocked up 149K miles on the way back from Donington on Tuesday.

My own view is that the 991 is too new to have proven itself yet. All I will say on the 991 is that the engine issues early on, combined with rear wheel steer that is hanging out in the rain, salt & general road muck doesn't give me huge confidence that these cars are going to be as tough as the older ones have proven to be. Its all very well having a warranty to protect you from the cost of failures, but they are hugely frustrating when they happen. Both my GT3s do not & have never had a warranty applied by me. They are very well built cars which with proper use & maintenance, really don't need one.

In addition, due to the way the 991 is constructed, any body damage is likely to involve far more specialist bodyshop services with the consequential increase in costs. Look underneath a 991 (any 991) & note the neat welding of old is now a thing of the past. On the 991 GT3, it has a rear subframe that looks like it should be on a Focus (it's a welded steel affair) not the beautiful cast aluminium subframes of the 996/997. This all points to costs accountants trimming production costs to maximize profits; and this is only on the bits you can actually see - who knows what's been skimped on under covers etc.?

Call me biased, but IMHO the 996/997 era GT3 is a more rewarding car to own & drive. The 3.8 997.2 in particular is a "does everything" car & is the pinnacle of the GT3 as a driver's car: modern enough to live with every day with a genuine motorsport engine that is simply a wonderful piece of engineering and as tough as old boots. The fact that values are so stable & gently rising on the older GT3s points to the market agreeing that these will be the classic GT3s of the future. They also made many more 991 era GT3s than in the previous eras which will also hold 991 prices down over the longer term.
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DerbyJim
Montreal


Joined: 25 May 2014
Posts: 584
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
Frenchmeister wrote:
If you are going to be precious about value why bother, it is a car to buy and enjoy.
A member on here has thrashed his GT3 around just about every track in Europe and I would say more than had his money worth......good on him.
That's why Porsche created the things in the first place.


That'd be me then Wink It just clocked up 149K miles on the way back from Donington on Tuesday.


Wow! Which route did you take??? Question Floor
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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 4994
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stock market for investment , GT3 for driving. Not mutually exclusive but if you make a bit on a car it's more by luck.

I'm surprised the 991.1 has held up so well but then the numbers weren't that huge in the UK and it's a cracking car. To make a gain you have to buy right and the boat has sailed a while a go. To not lose is pure speculation at this point. appreciation on GT cars is a relatively young phenomenon of the last four years or so so not exactly well charted territory.

If you want one buy one and enjoy it Thumb
 
  
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freddie44
Albert Park


Joined: 20 Aug 2009
Posts: 1608
Location: London

2007 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
Frenchmeister wrote:
If you are going to be precious about value why bother, it is a car to buy and enjoy.
A member on here has thrashed his GT3 around just about every track in Europe and I would say more than had his money worth......good on him.
That's why Porsche created the things in the first place.


That'd be me then Wink It just clocked up 149K miles on the way back from Donington on Tuesday.

My own view is that the 991 is too new to have proven itself yet. All I will say on the 991 is that the engine issues early on, combined with rear wheel steer that is hanging out in the rain, salt & general road muck doesn't give me huge confidence that these cars are going to be as tough as the older ones have proven to be. Its all very well having a warranty to protect you from the cost of failures, but they are hugely frustrating when they happen. Both my GT3s do not & have never had a warranty applied by me. They are very well built cars which with proper use & maintenance, really don't need one.

In addition, due to the way the 991 is constructed, any body damage is likely to involve far more specialist bodyshop services with the consequential increase in costs. Look underneath a 991 (any 991) & note the neat welding of old is now a thing of the past. On the 991 GT3, it has a rear subframe that looks like it should be on a Focus (it's a welded steel affair) not the beautiful cast aluminium subframes of the 996/997. This all points to costs accountants trimming production costs to maximize profits; and this is only on the bits you can actually see - who knows what's been skimped on under covers etc.?

Call me biased, but IMHO the 996/997 era GT3 is a more rewarding car to own & drive. The 3.8 997.2 in particular is a "does everything" car & is the pinnacle of the GT3 as a driver's car: modern enough to live with every day with a genuine motorsport engine that is simply a wonderful piece of engineering and as tough as old boots. The fact that values are so stable & gently rising on the older GT3s points to the market agreeing that these will be the classic GT3s of the future. They also made many more 991 era GT3s than in the previous eras which will also hold 991 prices down over the longer term.


Great insightful post as ever Nick. Hope you're well!
I cant ever see the 991.1 GT3 becoming a classic so its one to buy and enjoy Thumb
If you want the best car and the best chance of making money buy a 997 variant GT3
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Frenchmeister
Suzuka


Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 1071
Location: Beautiful Cumbria.

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was not aware that the bloody accountants had been at it again at Porsche, bloody welded steel engine frames, quite shocking really for a premium brand.
No wonder their profits re climbing, the way they are going they will de value the brand in a few years time.
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DRZ911
Suzuka


Joined: 13 Mar 2013
Posts: 1116
Location: Belfast


PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DerbyJim wrote:
I keep looking at a GT3, very, very nearly traded in last month but it was a 991.1 so PDK only. I then thought "hold on, I'm compromising what I want because Porsche won't sell me a new one..." so stuff em, I'll keep my C4S for a while longer!


Came to exactly the same conclusion myself about 2 months ago. Told my Dealer Principal exactly what I thought about Porsche's twisted and hypocritical GT3 supply strategy - he hasn't talked to me since. Boxer
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markturner1960
Monza


Joined: 26 Nov 2016
Posts: 150
Location: London UK

2003 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the useful input guys. As I said, its only a musing at the moment, triggered by the broker who got me the deal on my 996 teasing me with some offers and also a drive in a 991 GT3 RS at the Porsche experience at Silverstone.... it had a PDK box and I was hugely impressed by what it could do, despite being a die hard manual lover. I love my 996 and am very happy but just wondered what might be involved in trading up to something newer.....
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MNC911
Österreich


Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 922
Location: Prestbury


PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you've got to take the approach of buying any car, the likelihood is it will depreciate in value. How much, well that all depends on various factors. Law of averages the higher the price the bigger the hit. (apart from rare instances or rare cars in exceptional condition).

The only advise you can gain is by doing a comparison of what GT's are fetching now compared to their original price.
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