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3point6
Trainee


Joined: 02 Jul 2016
Posts: 97



PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: 997TT < 996TT Reply with quote

I sold my 996TT last week, it was a cracking car, manual with under 59k on it, mapped, sports exhaust, what a car, it was my 3rd 996TT in 5 years.

I had my heart set on a 997TT and went to see one today. This particular car was not for me (condition was not good enough) but after a run in it I have decided that the 6T is the car for me.

Inside the 7, I just didn't feel like I was in a 911, too modern, too comfortable, too much leather everywhere, too quiet, too civilised, no drama. The power delivery very different too, too linear. As if it was trying to hide the fact it was a turbo. My 6t boosted at 1.0bar with a hammer in the back, this boosted at the same 1.0bar but did not feel as brutal..ok, mine was mapped, but even before I mapped it it would still boost with a hammer.

My 6t felt more raw, more aggressive, more of a handful, more of a sports car, intimidating. 7 somehow feels like its trying to hide all that and is apologising for being a Turbo by trying to dull all the sensations and this instant spool turbo boost removes the old skool lag-boost. Maybe a driving marvel, maybe too good for it's own good?

I want raw aggression and fear, hammer like boost and a connected exhilarating ride. I am going to buy another 996 Turbo.

(sorry for the inevitable incoming flames.. this is purely my opinion.)
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 12821
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Car ownership is all about personal opinion. You'll get plenty of support from other 996Turbo fans with your post and (as you are already anticipating) some flack from 997Turbo owners.

All I would ask is ........ Did you try the car in 'Sports' mode Question

I didn't think there was that much difference in 'go' between the standard cars until I did my first spirited drive with the Sport button pressed. All the drama that the 997T lacks against the 996T in normal mode comes flooding in.

I was lucky to have both at the same time for a while and really get what you're saying about the 997T being more civilised but that's only to be expected from a car that is 6 years more evolved.

It wouldn't change a lot of your findings but .... you can map a 997T too.
_________________
2007 Guards Red 997 Turbo Tiptronic
ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 12821
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further to my post above you might find this of interest.

==> http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=105026&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=comparisons
_________________
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ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2322
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No flack from me Smile I've heard the 996 is a cracking car and seen some amazing looking ones at 9e.

T8 is right it is a personal opinion / choice so go with what you are happy with.
 
  
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3point6
Trainee


Joined: 02 Jul 2016
Posts: 97



PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post that, I will have a good read next..!

Yes, tried the sports button (for a fraction of a second to check it works) the car lurches forward.. similar experience to the e46 m3 sport button(?), but the test drive was a civilised affair, 3rd and 4th opened a few times was all. I dont like this button thing, either the car has power or not, it should all be there, not selectable. If it's on my ocd will want it off. If its off i'm not getting the full bhoona experience.

I just didn't feel the car. Yes a precision instrument, goes along the road with it's own physics, but you drive a 996t seat of your pants and I prefer that, that's me.
 
  
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DynoMike
Barcelona


Joined: 25 May 2012
Posts: 1275
Location: The Cotswolds

2003 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: 997TT < 996TT Reply with quote

3point6 wrote:
I sold my 996TT last week, it was a cracking car, manual with under 59k on it, mapped, sports exhaust, what a car, it was my 3rd 996TT in 5 years.

I had my heart set on a 997TT and went to see one today. This particular car was not for me (condition was not good enough) but after a run in it I have decided that the 6T is the car for me.

Inside the 7, I just didn't feel like I was in a 911, too modern, too comfortable, too much leather everywhere, too quiet, too civilised, no drama. The power delivery very different too, too linear. As if it was trying to hide the fact it was a turbo. My 6t boosted at 1.0bar with a hammer in the back, this boosted at the same 1.0bar but did not feel as brutal..ok, mine was mapped, but even before I mapped it it would still boost with a hammer.

My 6t felt more raw, more aggressive, more of a handful, more of a sports car, intimidating. 7 somehow feels like its trying to hide all that and is apologising for being a Turbo by trying to dull all the sensations and this instant spool turbo boost removes the old skool lag-boost. Maybe a driving marvel, maybe too good for it's own good?

I want raw aggression and fear, hammer like boost and a connected exhilarating ride. I am going to buy another 996 Turbo.

(sorry for the inevitable incoming flames.. this is purely my opinion.)



3point6, you are not the first person to say this, even Chris Harris said much the same. I've never driven a 7 turbo but my lightly mapped 6t feels perfect for me, everything you say above tallies with what I feel when driving mine. Interestingly the folks at Center Gravity also reckon that the 996 platform is the better of the two versions.

Good post. Good luck finding another one!
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Previous toy 1974 Mini 1000
 
  
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Moosh
Newbie


Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 16
Location: london


PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thumbsup
 
  
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ragpicker
Paul Ricard


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 3099
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah you won't find many in disagreement on the 996 forum.

I recently drove my friends absolutely lovely, very low mile, standard 997 turbo in my favourite colour. Whilst it was absolutely lovely in many ways it reminded me why I chose the 996 over the 997 when I was looking. I was also pleased that I didn't change to a 997 last year when I had a wobble.

I was impressed by the complete lack of turbo lag and how refined the 997 is in comparison to the 996. I was also very pleased by the increased intelligence of the tip software.

I was left with mixed feelings by the experience though in comparison to my particular car which is relatively heavily modified and set up for me. The steering feel, turn in, noise, power and feel of my personal 996 make it a real weapon and a very personal car.

Its horses for courses really, there will always be those who prefer the newer car, and to a certain extent it is an evolution in lots of little ways over the 996. However its also (for me) a step further away from its roots. The 996 is the sweet spot as far as I'm concerned. The 997 is essentially a heavy facelift.. Maybe the 991 has the significant change that I would need but as I haven't yet had the inclination to drive one I wouldn't know.

Essentially you can't make a bad choice!
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986 S - usually in pieces: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=112626
 
  
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3point6
Trainee


Joined: 02 Jul 2016
Posts: 97



PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 996TT was also "personalised" and when I buy another I will need to do the same again.. (map, exhaust etc.) only this time I will probably look into an even louder exhaust and a better map with some hardware upgrades this time too. Cop

Just need to find the car now before the wife finds something else to eat into the pot!
 
  
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adamw
Estoril


Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 3547
Location: West Sussex

2002 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting post 3point6..

I remember when we spoke when I was selling my 993 last year and yr precious 6T looked absolutely lovely.. You must be gutted to have parted ways especially deciding your heart lies with the 6 turbo!

Being new to the 6T I can only really comment on how much I currently love driving mine and I'm sure I'll be able to review further as I've owned it longer.
I've driven my cousins 7T and it felt a very special car but was prior to my purchase so not a direct comparison. I'll try and do this at some time just out of interest but needless to say I'm very satisfied with what I have
Thumb

As ragpicker has said it would be interesting to see response in 997 forum!! Very Happy

Good luck with the search Grin Very Happy
_________________
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EX : 95' 993 C4 Coupe ( Dec 10 - Oct 16 )
EX : 00' 996 C2 Cab ( Jul 09 - Oct 10 )
EX : 03' 986 Boxster S ( May 06 - Dec 08 )
 
  
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DynoMike
Barcelona


Joined: 25 May 2012
Posts: 1275
Location: The Cotswolds

2003 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adamw wrote:
Interesting post 3point6..


As ragpicker has said it would be interesting to see response in 997 forum!! Very Happy

Very Happy




Calling Boba Fett


Grin Star Wars
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Previous toy 1974 Mini 1000
 
  
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adamw
Estoril


Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 3547
Location: West Sussex

2002 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DynoMike wrote:
adamw wrote:
Interesting post 3point6..


As ragpicker has said it would be interesting to see response in 997 forum!! Very Happy

Very Happy




Calling Boba Fett


Grin Star Wars


Grin Thumb
_________________
02' 996 Turbo Manual Coupe, Seal Grey

EX : 95' 993 C4 Coupe ( Dec 10 - Oct 16 )
EX : 00' 996 C2 Cab ( Jul 09 - Oct 10 )
EX : 03' 986 Boxster S ( May 06 - Dec 08 )
 
  
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2322
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adamw wrote:
As ragpicker has said it would be interesting to see response in 997 forum!!


Sadly we are all too busy arguing amongst ourselves about which is better out of the 997.2 DFI PDK and the 997.1 mezger manual Smile
 
  
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adamw
Estoril


Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 3547
Location: West Sussex

2002 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apollokre1d wrote:
adamw wrote:
As ragpicker has said it would be interesting to see response in 997 forum!!


Sadly we are all too busy arguing amongst ourselves about which is better out of the 997.2 DFI PDK and the 997.1 mezger manual Smile


Grin Thumb
_________________
02' 996 Turbo Manual Coupe, Seal Grey

EX : 95' 993 C4 Coupe ( Dec 10 - Oct 16 )
EX : 00' 996 C2 Cab ( Jul 09 - Oct 10 )
EX : 03' 986 Boxster S ( May 06 - Dec 08 )
 
  
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DynoMike
Barcelona


Joined: 25 May 2012
Posts: 1275
Location: The Cotswolds

2003 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apollokre1d wrote:
adamw wrote:
As ragpicker has said it would be interesting to see response in 997 forum!!


Sadly we are all too busy arguing amongst ourselves about which is better out of the 997.2 DFI PDK and the 997.1 mezger manual Smile


Floor

Meanwhile us sixers are just driving our cars and admiring the ever so pretty headlights when washing the mullered flies off Grin
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Previous toy 1974 Mini 1000
 
  
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MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5296
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As with all these things it comes down to preference and how you define 'better'. I agree with 3point6 and like the raw feeling and the hammer hit when the boost comes in, I can sre equally that others might consider a smoother delivery and and the driving feel being not quite as raw as an improvement. I guess it is the same with the manual Mezger against the DFI PDK. So long as you are happy with what you have. I know I am.

MC
 
  
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2322
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DynoMike wrote:
apollokre1d wrote:
adamw wrote:
As ragpicker has said it would be interesting to see response in 997 forum!!


Sadly we are all too busy arguing amongst ourselves about which is better out of the 997.2 DFI PDK and the 997.1 mezger manual Smile


Floor

Meanwhile us sixers are just driving our cars and admiring the ever so pretty headlights when washing the mullered flies off Grin


Too right Smile

As I mentioned earlier I saw a few at 9e last time I was there & just lowering them makes such a difference. I prefer the stock wheels on 996 car compared to the 997 Gen1 wheels. The one I saw was black with bucket seats and looked really quick Very Happy
 
  
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TwinBoost
Monza


Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 166



PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apollokre1d wrote:

As I mentioned earlier I saw a few at 9e last time I was there & just lowering them makes such a difference.


Couldn't agree more.
_________________
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RJW1881
Monza


Joined: 10 Aug 2015
Posts: 229
Location: Holbeach

2007 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago when looking for a new weekend car. IMO unless your spending £100k's modern cars they do not feel "special", they are to refined for there own good and insulate you to much from the driving experience. They call it progress, I would agree it is progress in my Disco which is in daily use, but on a weekend/ early morning blast it detracts from the driving experience.

My advise would be to go test drive a 991 then re-test drive a 997, it will feel much more special. As others have said a few tweaks (lowering & re-map) also helps.

The added benefit of buying a 997 turbo is you own something that looks like this.
_________________
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Buell XB12 - carbon/ exhaust/ remap/ lowered
Disco 4 - daily
VXR8 - supercharged/ remap/ lowered/ exhaust
 



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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30191
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: 997TT < 996TT Reply with quote

3point6 wrote:
I sold my 996TT last week, it was a cracking car, manual with under 59k on it, mapped, sports exhaust, what a car, it was my 3rd 996TT in 5 years.

I had my heart set on a 997TT and went to see one today. This particular car was not for me (condition was not good enough) but after a run in it I have decided that the 6T is the car for me.

Inside the 7, I just didn't feel like I was in a 911, too modern, too comfortable, too much leather everywhere, too quiet, too civilised, no drama. The power delivery very different too, too linear. As if it was trying to hide the fact it was a turbo. My 6t boosted at 1.0bar with a hammer in the back, this boosted at the same 1.0bar but did not feel as brutal..ok, mine was mapped, but even before I mapped it it would still boost with a hammer.

My 6t felt more raw, more aggressive, more of a handful, more of a sports car, intimidating. 7 somehow feels like its trying to hide all that and is apologising for being a Turbo by trying to dull all the sensations and this instant spool turbo boost removes the old skool lag-boost. Maybe a driving marvel, maybe too good for it's own good?

I want raw aggression and fear, hammer like boost and a connected exhilarating ride. I am going to buy another 996 Turbo.

(sorry for the inevitable incoming flames.. this is purely my opinion.)


You are exactly right in your view on the power delivery.

The 997 (over 996) had the VTG Turbo fitted (variable turbine geometry), which earlier and more gently begins to spool up.

This technically increases the area under the torque and power curves - AKA flattens them (less lag/on boost step change)

In addition, the VTG also clips the torque peak (again making more linear and more flat).

This was intentional, the earlier spool up to make it more driveable (comfortable/accessible) and the mid range attenuation to be mechanically sympathetic to the driveline etc (applying a more consistent force profile across the rev range)

The low revs range requires the turbine vanes to be of a more aggressive pitch (capturing more exhaust flow), mid and high range requires the turbine vanes to progressively become a shallower pitch, letting more exhaust gas flow through (without the earlier power extraction coefficient)

The VTG can be remapped too, so don't give up based on the "out the box" character.
 
  
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