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Phil 997
Yas Marina


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 8916
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diverzeusy wrote:
alex yates wrote:
I do love a soft bush, just maybe not in Yellow. What's the other colour? Question Embarassed

Alex the main thing is,
if you require a soft ride you need a well shaved bush, however, us northerners prefer a hard ride so I would never shave my bush, just have it as it was intended, black? yellow? who cares. Floor Floor Thumb
On a more serious note please let us know how you get on, shaved or otherwise Grin


I was hoping Alex was going into detail as why a shaved bush makes for a better ride Grin I like the bush on my ride to be soft but need to find out if shaved is the way to go . I do think some of the new models come with a shaved bush to make the ride better. but looking forward to what Alex finds when he does some tweaking and if that helps with the stiffness. Grin Thumb
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10654
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some amazing info shared here guys. Boy I love this forum!! thumbsup
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Phil 997
Yas Marina


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 8916
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So am I right in thinking that this item for the 987 would also fit a 997.2

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/SuperCat/4293/POR_4293_ENGMIS_pg2.htm#item6

as its a great price to refresh the bearing if it is good for the 997 Thumb
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Zub-911
Silverstone


Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 102
Location: Perth, Scotland


PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

911munKy wrote:
Very informative Alex, thanks, looking forward to your future updates.
Also EGTE & Marky, your experience is valued.

I'm wondering if I should just get a set and try giving them a 'shave' before fitting, I'm thinking that the side walls probably transfer most of the NVH.


I have recently fitted and have covered around 500miles with them.
I really like the feel and the vibration seems to have died down however I was thinking about cutting them similar to what you describe munky.

if you were to insert them then cut the side walls off and just use the old soft side wall pads then you may be on to a 'best of both worlds' solution.
Similarly, filling the bush with some resin may give a similar result.

something to think about !
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10654
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone needs to experiment if it's the sidewalls or aperture inserts of a combination of both.
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EGTE
Nürburgring


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 439



PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jezgreen911 wrote:
EGTE wrote:
I found these completely unbearable and gave them away (to another forum member).

But it probably comes down to just how balanced the drive-train is on each car. Mine had a new clutch and may be a tad out; it was appalling.


I fitted these (thanks again EGTE) along with RSS engine mounts, I really like the improved connection and feel between the car and drivetrain, I guess I would put myself in the wannabe GT3 camp, my car was standard when I bought it so I can appreciate the comfort and usability of a stock 996, I just wanted my car to have a sportier feel, Thumb


Glad it worked for you Thumb
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 6988
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
Someone needs to experiment if it's the sidewalls or aperture inserts of a combination of both.


Great info and write ups here. Modifying the bush had crossed my mind when the other guys had said the bush was a little harsh and my idea, in this order, was to take most of the sidewall of the bush away as this is not really needed and see what result that brings, then take one of the insert sections off. I will have time to access how the bush performs for the next 4000 miles then when I get home I'll think about the mod.
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wasz
Albert Park


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1624


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the tool you need to buy or make to replace the mount in situ:



$300 here with instructions: http://www.agatools.com/part/porsche-transmission-parts/porsche-transmission-tool

Could probably knock it up with some steel pipe and decent strength threaded rod.

However this makes it sound like you need a to of force: https://www.renntech.org/forums/topic/28781-diy-for-transmission-mount-rr/

I held off fitting my power flex, I think a new lemforder bush will be going in when the clutch is done, I'm the kinda guy that drops his tyre pressures a little and doesn't drive to the shops like its a track day. Wink
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10654
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grin Thumb
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10654
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
........and my idea, in this order, was to take most of the sidewall of the bush away as this is not really needed and see what result that brings.



I was thinking about this last night and why the sidewall is the thickness it is. It then dawned on me that they're that thickness as the distance across the outside faces of them when both inserts are fully depressed into the mounting bush are the same width as the carrier that goes over them. This is so that the outer faces act as stops and prevent the inserts from moving out from the apertures in the bush, thus ensuring they are fully encapsulated in their designed position.

Mine do seem to be less 'vibrant' since I fitted them on Friday. Think they'll be getting left alone for the foreseeable future and see what happens.

Edit: Sorry Chris, I'm presuming you meant thinning the walls down of the inserts? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 6988
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
infrasilver wrote:
........and my idea, in this order, was to take most of the sidewall of the bush away as this is not really needed and see what result that brings.



I was thinking about this last night and why the sidewall is the thickness it is. It then dawned on me that they're that thickness as the distance across the outside faces of them when both inserts are fully depressed into the mounting bush are the same width as the carrier that goes over them. This is so that the outer faces act as stops and prevent the inserts from moving out from the apertures in the bush, thus ensuring they are fully encapsulated in their designed position.

Mine do seem to be less 'vibrant' since I fitted them on Friday. Think they'll be getting left alone for the foreseeable future and see what happens.

Edit: Sorry Chris, I'm presuming you meant thinning the walls down of the inserts? Correct me if I'm wrong.


Yeah they are that thickness to hold the insert in place as you say but I think there is probably too much on them just to replicate the original outer rubbers shape and I don't think it needs that much. I was thinking of cutting it down to the diameter of the actual bush so there is just a circle of poly and as this will be minimal to the NVH I may then chop off one of the insert sections off and see how that is.
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Last edited by infrasilver on Tue May 30, 2017 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10654
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha! Thumb
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demon
Monza


Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 168



PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone who fitted these inserts and didn't notice a difference would need to get themselves "checked"...!
- they make a big difference to the car - you do need to be the type who would eat marmite straight out of the jar if you plan to fit them

There's definitely more vibration. But it depends somewhat on how you drive. There is likewise definitely a firming up of shifting - second to third coming out of a deep sharp lefthander is now guaranteed, rather than requiring so much knack and timing...

My entire car is polybushed including the subframe mounts, but as a result I run standard engine mounts, rather than the RSS... so maybe this influences things.

For the first time I'm suddenly conscious I drive a 6 cylinder boxer engine, rather than just a smooth 6 cylinder....!
- there's not much exhaust note now (from the cabin), as it has been blended with more mechanical transmission and engine noise....... which I like! there's an element of "cup car" to it!!! - so yes, definitely only for those who are looking to intentionally compromise the out of the box road going manners of the 996 Carrera into something else

My main hobby this summer is going to be putting sticky backed felt and 1.5mm foam behind things.... but everyone needs a hobby and this one's pretty cheap...... in 996 terms!
 
  
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EGTE
Nürburgring


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 439



PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good summary, although it seems odd that you should be worrying about rattles/buzzes, while being keen on the vibration of these mounts Question
 
  
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demon
Monza


Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 168



PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EGTE wrote:
Good summary, although it seems odd that you should be worrying about rattles/buzzes, while being keen on the vibration of these mounts Question


I don't think the lid of the centre console "buzzing" at 4.5k really adds to the overall aural experience - vibration and mechanical noise is one thing, plastic on plastic noises in the cabin due to age and overall fit of interior trim bits is another.... these noises were always there to a degree before, but now its with a bit too much vengeance....

If I were to strip the interior it would be all pure mechanical noise, but I'm fighting for the "impossible" plush air conditioned leather interior, understated external appearance (aka "the one that looks like a Boxster") and hinting towards GT3-esque mechanical underpinnings....
- personally I think a really well considered/sorted Carrera (with a degree of compromise) can eclipse a GT3 as a really good everyday performance road car.......

Track car = awful road car
Fast road car = pedestrian uninspiring track car

My cars aspiration is firmly "fast road car"
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 6988
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was fitting my insert today when refitting the gearbox and as it was too tight to fit in easily I removed it and decided to modify it to how I was going to do fairly soon anyway.
As you can see I just couldn't get the gearbox to fit in easily with all the side section of the insert, I think my original rubber mount has some extra rubber in the middle from the manufacturing process that won't let the insert fit fully into it.









Hopefully this turns out to be about right and not too harsh.
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10654
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Groundhog post Surprised Laughing
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Marky911
Imola


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 850



PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

demon wrote:
EGTE wrote:
Good summary, although it seems odd that you should be worrying about rattles/buzzes, while being keen on the vibration of these mounts Question


I don't think the lid of the centre console "buzzing" at 4.5k really adds to the overall aural experience - vibration and mechanical noise is one thing, plastic on plastic noises in the cabin due to age and overall fit of interior trim bits is another.... these noises were always there to a degree before, but now its with a bit too much vengeance....

If I were to strip the interior it would be all pure mechanical noise, but I'm fighting for the "impossible" plush air conditioned leather interior, understated external appearance (aka "the one that looks like a Boxster") and hinting towards GT3-esque mechanical underpinnings....
- personally I think a really well considered/sorted Carrera (with a degree of compromise) can eclipse a GT3 as a really good everyday performance road car.......

Track car = awful road car
Fast road car = pedestrian uninspiring track car

My cars aspiration is firmly "fast road car"



+1 on the summary.

Fair play to you Demon, you seem to have found the experience you're after. Proof that we all like things different.
All I'll say is you'll be chasing rattles for the rest of your days now. Grin
That bush makes things feel like the whole car is mounted around the gearbox.
The rattles on overrun from high revs are the worst. The roll cage buzzes, coins in the ash tray go beserk.

All I'll say is what I mentioned earlier. Don't confuse vibration with "race car".
A bush that makes everything shake and rattle does not make a GT3.
Despite having a mega stiff shell and cage (in Clubsport trim) a GT3 interior is still a comfortable rattle free place to be. The chatter from the single mass flywheel gives a hint at what to expect before you set off but after that the screamr of an engine does the talking. The buckets and stiff suspension keep you focused and the whole experience is simply gorgeous.

I agree that a properly set up C2 with some good mods and fresh suspension can feel like 90% of a GT3, although that probably drops to 80% once the engine comes into play.

Anyway bush or no bush enjoy the cars peeps. Thumb

It's always interesting to see who gets on with certain mods and who doesn't. That's why I'm interested to see how Alex and Infra find it.
 
  
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Phil 997
Yas Marina


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 8916
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
I was fitting my insert today when refitting the gearbox and as it was too tight to fit in easily I removed it and decided to modify it to how I was going to do fairly soon anyway.
As you can see I just couldn't get the gearbox to fit in easily with all the side section of the insert, I think my original rubber mount has some extra rubber in the middle from the manufacturing process that won't let the insert fit fully into it.









Hopefully this turns out to be about right and not too harsh.



Pop Corn Pop Corn Pop Corn
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1040



PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a few different types of these inserts out there and thought I'd share pics of the ones i have.

Noticeable differences are the flanges on this version are much smaller and more in line with what Infrasilver has modded into.

But something of note is that the thickness of the flanges on mine do not protrude past the thickness of OE bush central metal section. I would say the the flanges need to float like the OE rubber spacers (that need to be omitted when fitting these inserts) and if they don't and are wedged in between the gearbox nose and the horseshoe support then that is where all the NVH is coming from.



 
  
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