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Delanor
Nürburgring


Joined: 01 Oct 2016
Posts: 377
Location: The land of the big cat!


PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:54 pm    Post subject: Timing chain tensioners Reply with quote

Now I guess this has probably been discussed before but I have a rattling timing chain on a 996 on 90K miles when starting from cold that appears to be getting noisier, I have owned the car for a year and it had just been serviced when I bought it since then it has done a couple of thousand miles due to the fact it is one of 3 cars I drive, I get a loud rattle for literally a second its not cam followers then the engine runs a sweet as it should anyway having extensively searched online can someone tell me to replace the tensioners do I have to lock the cams in order to remove each tensioner one at a time as I have read you need to lock the crank OK not a problem but the cams need a special tool but do you actually need to do this as some say yes and some say no.

I can fabricate a camshaft lock tool if needed but its a waste of time/effort if its not necessary so can anyone tell me what exactly is required because what I have read gives conflicting advice.

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Del.
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
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Joined: 04 Oct 2010
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Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could actually be the guides that are worn after 90k miles, the chains cut a groove in the plastic and this takes the tension off the chains a little as you can imagine.
Changing the guides is more involved than just the tensioners are though.
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Delanor
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In most cars with a timing chain if the guides are worn the chain noise is constant not just on a cold start so you know the guides need changing so is a Porsche different if so do you really have to undertake a strip down to find the guides maybe are OK and its not just the tensioners.

Surely hydraulic tensioners are there to take up the slack?

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Del.
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
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2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are correct that ordinarily they would make noise all the time if it was worn guides but both the tensioner and guides work hand in hand and there is only so much slack they will take up.

It was just another thing to consider, the chains do cut quite deep into the guides and I replaced mine during an engine build around 60k miles as they were deeply scored.


And to answer your question, I would lock the cams and crank before changing the tensioners and do them one at a time.
Can you point where the rattle is coming from as you have three tensioners, one for each bank and the crank to IMS chain too. I think it is possible to repair the tensioners with some heat and flushing out.
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Delanor
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rattle stops literally as fast as it starts when firing up from cold such as overnight so that suggests its a tensioner not holding pressure I will have to have a listen round with a stethoscope.

Where would I get the correct cam locking tool.

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Del.
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
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Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ebay do kits but you could easily make one and use an 8mm drill bit for the crank pully.
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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Location: 4,000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delanor wrote:

Where would I get the correct cam locking tool.


You need the top one of these 2 for the 3.4. The longer one is for the 3.6 (Of which I manufacture: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PORSCHE-996-997-987-911-BOXSTER-CAMSHAFT-LOCKING-TOOL-CAM-TIMING-GAUGE-/182277744776)


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alex yates
Shanghai
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2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose you could probably chop the 3.6 tool down.
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Demort
Estoril


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 3502
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some manuals here might help ..

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=83491

Correct way is to lock the cams and crank as such thats what i would advise .

Mechanics and obviously people on the forums might say you can get away without locking the cams .. i would just point out that a mechanic in an equiped workshop is in a position to correct the timeing should it slip .

The fault does sound like a tensioner .. but a sound clip is always usefull Smile
 
  
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Delanor
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Location: The land of the big cat!


PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has no-one actually removed the chain tensioners on an early 5 chain engine, there seems to be cam lock tools available to do a late 996/997 3 chain engine but no-one markets a lock tool for a 5 chain - why is that?

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Del.
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Demort
Estoril


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Done loads ..

Early type you lock a single camshaft , later type you lock both , if you read alex yates a couple up you will see the locking tool for both types and where it can be bought.

If you download the instructions i mentioned it will also show you the tools and it wouldn,t be hard to fabricate something like that .
 
  
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Delanor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had already read up on the method etc but the cam tool bit is confusing I have got some vague dimensions to make one up but I just couldn`t understand why no-one appears to sell that tool which would have saved me making one.

I have searched but can find the tool to lock both cams but not for just the one unless I`m looking in the wrong places.

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Del.
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alex yates
Shanghai
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen them for sale but usually included in the full kit. I keep meaning to make them 3.4 as well but need one to copy 1st.
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Demort
Estoril


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
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Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
Delanor wrote:

Where would I get the correct cam locking tool.


You need the top one of these 2 for the 3.4. The longer one is for the 3.6 (Of which I manufacture: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PORSCHE-996-997-987-911-BOXSTER-CAMSHAFT-LOCKING-TOOL-CAM-TIMING-GAUGE-/182277744776)



Top tool here will lock one cam ( early type ) .. if you cant get it too fit and to be honest i cant remember on an installed engine as i dont use it , then you need a narrow version of this with a long bar , must be able to shorten it and weld a bar on i would have thought .
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chopping the right hand side of the 3.6 longer tool would probably do the job.
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wasz
Kyalami


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1870


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delanor wrote:
The rattle stops literally as fast as it starts when firing up from cold such as overnight so that suggests its a tensioner not holding pressure I will have to have a listen round with a stethoscope.

Where would I get the correct cam locking tool.

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*
Del.


Hang on a minute before you rebuild your engine, this is normal for an early car. Most do it with a few miles on. Its just a rattle for the first half second of startup and makes you cringe every time.

Thicker oil quietened mine down almost completely I run 10/40 millers nano.

Its the oil filled tensioner leaking down. Later cars got a stronger spring assisted tensioner. It probably is due to tensioner pads wearing.
 
  
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Delanor
Nürburgring


Joined: 01 Oct 2016
Posts: 377
Location: The land of the big cat!


PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well @ 87K miles it didn`t rattle now on 90K miles it does, surely if a tensioner/tensioners are losing pressure causing excessive contact of the timing chain on the chain guides that is going to accelerate any wear even if it is only for seconds starting from cold!

There are three things I don`t do on cars:
1. Rust.
2. Rattles.
3. Ditch finder tyres.

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Del.
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wasz
Kyalami


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1870


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if you are gonna change the tensioner pads you may as well rebuild everything else thats "at risk" of failing in there.

Where do you stop short of a full rebuild?
 
  
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Delanor
Nürburgring


Joined: 01 Oct 2016
Posts: 377
Location: The land of the big cat!


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not going to pull the engine to re-place the chain guides I`m just going to remove the hydraulic tensioners to check/clean or replace them if necessary.

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Del.
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Delanor
Nürburgring


Joined: 01 Oct 2016
Posts: 377
Location: The land of the big cat!


PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone actually successfully removed the tensioners & cleaned them to see if they are faulty or not if so did it make any difference ie. did it cure the rattle on start up or do I just put 3 new replacements in?

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Del.
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