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ELA
Suzuka


Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1049
Location: Nurburgring Doorstep


PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:49 am    Post subject: 996 gearbox strip down and rebuild? Reply with quote

Has anyone here tried. I'm thinking about giving mine an overhaul with some trick bearings... just wondered if the likes of Infrasilver or Demort have been down this road.
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cheshire911
Paul Ricard


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3252



PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no mechanic, but I'd say its no easy job to dismantle and put back together this box having seen the myriad of bits that come out of one at Sports & Classic (see his website).

Aside from skill and competency it needs specialist equipment to remove bearings and apply the correct pre-loads on assembly.

But you are the one to know your confidence and the equipment you have.
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wasz
Albert Park


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1538


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theres apparently a really big press needed for one bearing, and you only get a couple of chances with it in the life of the casting. Also theres some unknowns around sourcing parts for the boxes.

Have a search of the US Porsche forums as more people have documented work on them.

Mike at sports and classic is apparently the UK expert on these having invested in tooling and many indies send boxes there.

So you can take your chances - if you have the tools and presses then go for it. Personally I would look for a used low mileage box.

Would a 997 box fit?!
 
  
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demon
Monza


Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 151



PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was originally suggested that the 996 box couldn't be cracked open and serviced.... but there are a number of specialist gearbox rebuilders that now do so relatively routinely.....
- on balance I would definitely send to a specialist and save yourself some grey hair!

My rebuilder preferred me to source the parts i.e. the various bearings and syncros they identified after the strip down, but otherwise didn't seem concerned about the logistics
(pinon gear height is apparently a bit of a big deal with these gearboxes, along with a few casing peculiarities)

I still remember picking up that rather small £1,300 box of parts from the OPC a few years ago........!

I wouldn't play with it myself, but you've already shown yourself to be "braver" that most : )

....not sure about compatibility offhand, but I think I'm right that the 996.2 GT3 had "strengthened"/toughened 2nd and 3rd syncros...?
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10192
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As stated by wasz, the main bearing needs a few ton to press it out. Personally I'd have thought some decent heat around the casing would lower the tonnage required. Any 'arf decent mechanical Engineer shouldn't have a problem with it.
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Diggermeister
Monza


Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 210



PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had my 'box done by Mike at Sports & Classic. It'd started doing the dreaded 2nd gear syncro pop-out. There were a few other bits that, one closer inspection, warranted replacement whilst the thing was dismantled.

Every time I visit for a service there's another 996 or 997 (normally GT3 or turbo) in there, minus a gearbox, so he certainly knows the job well. From his description, there are a few tricks to getting the parts replaced and put back together in optimum alignment - this latter, the assembly technique, is what caused a lot of premature failures, as opposed to component or manufacturing failures.
 
  
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ELA
Suzuka


Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1049
Location: Nurburgring Doorstep


PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys thank you for all the ideas. I did a bit of testing today and think it is the diff pinion bearing. I then phoned up Mike at SC and he has confirmed that this is a common issue, usually around the 70-80k miles mark. I was considering cancelling the upcoming UK trip for the Simply Porsche event, but think I will risk it, then drop the box when I get back home. Whilst in there I'm thinking of also throwing in a different diff. It has the Porsche Sports diff from factory (M220 I think it is) but I hear these are likely to be pretty tired in short order.
So any ideas on a good replacement. Nothing too crazy (Fast road rather than Track)?
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10192
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Above jobs can be done in situ. I knarled all the teeth off my diff. pinion (sun) gears ages ago. My man rebuilt the diff. with new gears, bearings, seals, etc. with the gearbox still in the car. Takes about an hour to get the diff. out.

Read hear for more info:

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=101970

Thumb

EDIT: Scratch that mate, I was getting mixed up with your diff bearings. Worth checking them first though.
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cheshire911
Paul Ricard


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3252



PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pop around to have a coffee with Mike when I'm out and about and I agree - he nearly always has a Turbo or GT3 gearbox strip and rebuild - and shows me the general state if its dismantled.

He does a series of mods when assembling the gearbox with new parts that he doesnt disclose but in short he claims they extend the life of the gearbox.

He also shows me examples of gearboxes sent to him by another dealer, invariably a non-specialist (courier on a palette) from within the UK as well as abroad and I see first hand some examples of the total c&ck up someone else has made and in desperation they send it to him to sort. That's twice the gearbox is dropped, stripped and rebuilt! Imagine the cost of that!
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Disco
Paul Ricard


Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3480
Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

demon wrote:

....not sure about compatibility offhand, but I think I'm right that the 996.2 GT3 had "strengthened"/toughened 2nd and 3rd syncros...?


That is drifting out of context - the gearbox in the GT3 is a completely different item to that in the Carreras and is completely serviceable to a good gearbox builder. Porsche will rebuild a GT3 gearbox, however they will always exchange a 996 Carrera one.

But your point is in the right area - brass synchros in the 996.1 GT3 gearbox were replaced by steel in the 996.2 equivalent (which IIRC also added an extra gearbox oil cooler). Thumb
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Demort
Sepang


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 2775
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ ELA i think your question has been answered already Very Happy

With any box you need a press .. various pullers , heat and a manual Wink
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10192
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort wrote:
@ ELA i think your question has been answered already Very Happy

With any box you need a press .. various pullers , heat and some Paracetamol Wink


Thumb
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ELA
Suzuka


Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1049
Location: Nurburgring Doorstep


PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort wrote:
@ ELA i think your question has been answered already Very Happy

With any box you need a press .. various pullers , heat and a manual Wink


I like the idea of a challenge, but having read a few stories about potential to damage and even established gearbox outfits struggling with the 6speed Getrag unit, I think I'll just do the Beaulieu thing, keep my fingers crossed that the box holds up for the 1200mile journey, then send it to Mike at SC when I get back. In the mean time, I'll drop the oil and check for debris on the mag pick-up before driving over.
Also a 2nd hand unit is no good as it could be worse. I may just be being hyper-sensitive but I think balancing the LWFW/clutch, refreshing/upgrading the GB and throwing in a trick diff will mean worry free motoring for another 100000miles (well the gearbox atleast) Smile

Alex/Cheshire911 thanks for all your input Thumb
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1275kg 997GT3RS with:
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Akrapovic titanium exhaust
Cup 9:35 diff, Airbox, PAS, front lip
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cheshire911
Paul Ricard


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3252



PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with your remark about a used gearbox - it could be needing work or it could be worse than your example. If your box is rebuilt, you know where you stand versus an unknown gearbox.
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ELA
Suzuka


Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1049
Location: Nurburgring Doorstep


PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry one other thing. What Gearbox oil are people using? I know it's 75W90, I am currently running Motul, but just wondered what brands people recommend? I've heard good things about Redline...
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1275kg 997GT3RS with:
Kessels 458bhp 3.8l & vgs-MS ECU
Akrapovic titanium exhaust
Cup 9:35 diff, Airbox, PAS, front lip
BBS 19's
H&R Suspension
Carbon wings/doors/bonnet/door cards
 
  
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thecarfixer
Trainee


Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Posts: 53



PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ELA wrote:
Sorry one other thing. What Gearbox oil are people using? I know it's 75W90, I am currently running Motul, but just wondered what brands people recommend? I've heard good things about Redline...


I've used Millers NT+ 75w90 on my car - just dropped the gearbox oil out and had no reason to believe it had ever been changed as the filler plug was bastard tight. Change quality is *so* much better now, it feels really positive and snickety. They do two types, one with a friction modifier for LSDs.
 
  
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Jamesx19
Silverstone


Joined: 10 Jul 2015
Posts: 134
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used Motul 300. No real difference to whatever was already in there. Second still pops out for the first 4 miles when cold!!
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SaintsPaul
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 17 Nov 2012
Posts: 277
Location: Hants


PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thecarfixer wrote:
ELA wrote:
Sorry one other thing. What Gearbox oil are people using? I know it's 75W90, I am currently running Motul, but just wondered what brands people recommend? I've heard good things about Redline...


I've used Millers NT+ 75w90 on my car - just dropped the gearbox oil out and had no reason to believe it had ever been changed as the filler plug was bastard tight. Change quality is *so* much better now, it feels really positive and snickety. They do two types, one with a friction modifier for LSDs.


I have just changed mine to Millers and as you say such a noticeable difference. Even from cold.
The drainplug is a bastard to get out. I did notice though that the new one I bought was ali so should not be a problem next time thumbsup
 
  
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Diggermeister
Monza


Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 210



PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire911 wrote:
I agree with your remark about a used gearbox - it could be needing work or it could be worse than your example. If your box is rebuilt, you know where you stand versus an unknown gearbox.
agree. Also agree with your comment that a good few of the 'boxes S&C rebuild are subsequent to failed fixes by other firms (including at least two OPCs to my knowledge, who will remain nameless) which tells a story. Stripping the 'box from the car and sending by courier, if you have the means to dismantle, seems a very good compromise between full DIY and having the whole job done for you.
 
  
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ELA
Suzuka


Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1049
Location: Nurburgring Doorstep


PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys Thumb


Jamesx19 wrote:
I used Motul 300. No real difference to whatever was already in there. Second still pops out for the first 4 miles when cold!!


This is what I went for James; the Ester based Motul 300. There were no real signs of metallic paste build up on the magnetic pick-up so I'll risk driving over for the Beaulieu event in a few weeks.

This video may give an indication of the gearbox noise:

Open Youtube Page

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1275kg 997GT3RS with:
Kessels 458bhp 3.8l & vgs-MS ECU
Akrapovic titanium exhaust
Cup 9:35 diff, Airbox, PAS, front lip
BBS 19's
H&R Suspension
Carbon wings/doors/bonnet/door cards
 
  
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