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kye_997
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Joined: 04 Feb 2017
Posts: 10



PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: 997 S from Border Reivers: engine failure Reply with quote

All-
I am sure that there is a lot of knowledge on here regarding bore scoring and the consumer act. I have issues and would like input on the best way forward.

Purchased the car a 997 S from Border Reivers with a 6 month warranty in October last year. 50% cash and 50% on HP through Evington/Arkle finance.

It has been a nightmare to be honest. I took my time to buy the right car, border rievers confirmed the car was perfect in every way, previous owner on the F1 team at maclaren full service history etc etc. car was advertised with 59K miles and I paid top money for it. i had read about bore scoring and rievers also confirmed that they had checked out the car and there were no issues.

Anyway, in the first month of ownership oil alarm came on, spoke to border reivers who claimed all of these burn oil and to add which I did. This became a monthly problem .. by end of January 3 months into owning the car i had quite a nice noise at idle, check engine lights on and black soot on left hand side.

Took the car ASAP to autofarm in Oxford (brilliant guys) who did a full check on it - cylinder 6 bad scoring, check engine light due to O2 sensor most likely from the scoring/burning oil.

Informed Rievers immediately (Tom Fitzsimmons, owner) who replied that "Its a nightmare on these cars Kye, There is no guarantee when they will go or if they will go. We have stopped taking them into stock its not that we have sold one with a problem its just every 996-early 997 has a question mark,regardless of mileage. The last owner was an engineer & the car was exceptional & he had it checked out, we also had it independently bore scoped. We have never had to go to the warranty company with this issue however I will ask the question should their be an issue"

This is the last I have heard from this so called reputable company - countless letters/emails trying to get a remedy as per consumer act, none answered.

This is where the finance company comes in as they were advising how to handle towards the dealer and also tried unsuccessfully to get any action taken.

I was left with a car that could not be driven and needed very expensive work to put right so I rejected the car to Arkle. They agreed to come and pick up the car and refund the total minus fair usage.

so they picked up the car weeks ago which is in perfect condition apart from the engine.

this is where I would like anyone with experience to comment as I have chased the finance company for weeks , they continued to take payments even though they have the car. I received emails from them saying that they would be refunding but never mentioning the amounts or when, anyway finally i get a letter from the finance company basically saying that they do not believe the car is not fit for purpose, they want me to pay to prove that it is not (the issue happened within 6 months isn't it their obligation to prove), they also have said that the car was too expensive and have now valued it for 8,000 less than I paid and I shouldn't have paid so much for it .. also told me to go after the dealer for the deposit as I paid it (on their instruction) direct to the dealer ..

any thoughts ?
 
  
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Desert Dragon
Silverstone


Joined: 03 May 2017
Posts: 144



PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have experience with Tom.

Went to see a rare 1989 911 turbo LE that was described as completely mint. When I got there and had look at the car it quite obviously wasn't mint as it had taken a hard knock on off side. To compound matters it was a bad repair. To be fair to Tom if I'd bought the car and had the repair done again properly that car would be £250,000 in todays market and they only wanted £75,000. With hindsight I should have bought it. I don't think they expected a potential customer to be able to look over a used car like me. The history was also a bit patchy to back up its very low miles but as I said before I should have bought it full stop. I personally think they're good guys but its a tricky situation all round with this bore scoring issue.

As far as the finance co goes you should immediately put in a FOS complaint to the Financial Ombudsman. This will bring them to heel sharpish. No question.

As for Border Reivers you need a Scottish solicitor to put a claim in against them in the Court of Session. As soon as they receive a petition this should focus their minds but even if it doesn't you'll win in court. Judges do not like car dealers generally. If its any consolation Scottish lawyers are far cheaper than English lawyers.

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Desert Dragon
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should also report the warranty co to Financial Ombudsman. Its a financial product Thumb
 
  
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kye_997
Newbie


Joined: 04 Feb 2017
Posts: 10



PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi great input thanks. I have the ombudsman looking at it now and am instructing lawyers immediately if they can't act yet. Its amazing how people i thought had integrity have none at all ! guess i shouldn't be surprised.

any one point me towards where i can find professional opinion on how long bore score takes to form before it becomes apparent with noise? i found out that border rievers could not have checked the bore score before delivery as they claimed so am sure it was developing even before delivery.

Desert Dragon wrote:
I have experience with Tom.

Went to see a rare 1989 911 turbo LE that was described as completely mint. When I got there and had look at the car it quite obviously wasn't mint as it had taken a hard knock on off side. To compound matters it was a bad repair. To be fair to Tom if I'd bought the car and had the repair done again properly that car would be £250,000 in todays market and they only wanted £75,000. With hindsight I should have bought it. I don't think they expected a potential customer to be able to look over a used car like me. The history was also a bit patchy to back up its very low miles but as I said before I should have bought it full stop. I personally think they're good guys but its a tricky situation all round with this bore scoring issue.

As far as the finance co goes you should immediately put in a FOS complaint to the Financial Ombudsman. This will bring them to heel sharpish. No question.

As for Border Reivers you need a Scottish solicitor to put a claim in against them in the Court of Session. As soon as they receive a petition this should focus their minds but even if it doesn't you'll win in court. Judges do not like car dealers generally. If its any consolation Scottish lawyers are far cheaper than English lawyers.

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Desert Dragon
Silverstone


Joined: 03 May 2017
Posts: 144



PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kye_997 wrote:
Hi great input thanks. I have the ombudsman looking at it now and am instructing lawyers immediately if they can't act yet. Its amazing how people i thought had integrity have none at all ! guess i shouldn't be surprised.

any one point me towards where i can find professional opinion on how long bore score takes to form before it becomes apparent with noise? i found out that border rievers could not have checked the bore score before delivery as they claimed so am sure it was developing even before delivery.

Desert Dragon wrote:
I have experience with Tom.

Went to see a rare 1989 911 turbo LE that was described as completely mint. When I got there and had look at the car it quite obviously wasn't mint as it had taken a hard knock on off side. To compound matters it was a bad repair. To be fair to Tom if I'd bought the car and had the repair done again properly that car would be £250,000 in todays market and they only wanted £75,000. With hindsight I should have bought it. I don't think they expected a potential customer to be able to look over a used car like me. The history was also a bit patchy to back up its very low miles but as I said before I should have bought it full stop. I personally think they're good guys but its a tricky situation all round with this bore scoring issue.

As far as the finance co goes you should immediately put in a FOS complaint to the Financial Ombudsman. This will bring them to heel sharpish. No question.

As for Border Reivers you need a Scottish solicitor to put a claim in against them in the Court of Session. As soon as they receive a petition this should focus their minds but even if it doesn't you'll win in court. Judges do not like car dealers generally. If its any consolation Scottish lawyers are far cheaper than English lawyers.

thumbsup


Baz at Hartech your friend. You need to put FOS complaints against the warranty firm and finance co as they're regulated by the FCA.

BR you obviously need a good Scottish solicitor. They're car dealers and many of them behave like this in the used market unfortunately. Difficult to blame them as its a tough market to make money in generally so they have to be hard nosed or they'd be paying us for buying cars off them. Very few get it right but there are a few good ones too. 911 Virgin, RSJ, Stirlings (may be the best) etc etc
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10229
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do they have documented evidence that the bores weren't scored when you purchased? I bet they didn't even get them checked.

Really sorry to hear about your experience and good luck resolving it.
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kye_997
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Joined: 04 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex they said that they had it done but have never provided evidence even after asking over and over .. I know it wasn't done as when i had the bore scoring confirmed by a professional it took them 2 hours to get the corroded bolts off so they said it could never have been opened just 3 months earlier ..


alex yates wrote:
Do they have documented evidence that the bores weren't scored when you purchased? I bet they didn't even get them checked.

Really sorry to hear about your experience and good luck resolving it.
 
  
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seeforez
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jan 2016
Posts: 1344
Location: up norf


PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so why didn't you go to the warranty company direct - put the onus on the warranty company to prove it was an existing problem and then the dealer is lying about checking it or if it isn't an existing problem then they need to fix it ?

agree you may now want legal advice - even a solicitors letter may be a good starting point if they aren't replying
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the warranty company will probably say it is a known generic fault these cars have, therefore not covered with the warranty.
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Last edited by alex yates on Sat May 06, 2017 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Rossi911
Suzuka


Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 1164
Location: England

2011 Porsche 991 Carrera

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Border Reivers Negative Review

I also have 1st hand experience of Border Reivers , I saw a GT3 back in 2015 which was described as mint with a lot of details

except after wasting 2 hours driving up to see it, the car was barely in average condition, the ad was a copy and paste from when it was for sale 5 years earlier and since that point a lot of parts had been swapped out

I was told about their bullet proof warranty but the place is a complete joke and then wasted another 2 hours to get back home

nooo


For the owners to fob you off with
Quote:
Its a nightmare on these cars Kye, There is no guarantee when they will go or if they will go.
is not acceptable as you could say that for any car, as that's why you have a warranty which THEY need to cover, since it's the law

and so what is the last owner works at the
Quote:
F1 team at maclaren full service history
he could just be in the marketing dept FFS!

on the basis they have other 996/997 for sale right now they you know they are trying to fob you off

they just end up trying to flog their unsold cars into Silverstone Auctions every year

Border Reivers you are a joke
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Desert Dragon
Silverstone


Joined: 03 May 2017
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ don't hold back why don't you Gun Fire
 
  
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kye_997
Newbie


Joined: 04 Feb 2017
Posts: 10



PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there seems to be a pattern rapidly emerging here ...
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10229
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally - the first thing I'd do is carry on making the loan payments and get the car back from the finance company. Then progress getting my money back from the stealer in exchange for you returning the car, or them repairing it. Don't even bother going down the warranty route.

or, will Autofarm not produce some document you can give to the finance company to prove it's not fit for purpose (although I wouldn't go down this route if they're on about not giving you the full amount back).
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DucatiRob
Suzuka


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1071
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some good advise on here for you!

I think you should go after the dealer too. If they had the car boroscoped by an independent then they should almost certainly be able to provide images. I would say that it almost certainly had scoring when they sold it to you. My car was diagnosed with 'heavy' scoring on cylinder number 4, how long it had been scored I can' be sure, but it took another 6 months/6k miles for any symptoms to show, first heavier oil consumption followed by sooting of the left tip and another couple of months before the dreaded ticking at idle. I am sure that Autofarm would be able to confirm that the issue would almost certainly have been there when it was sold.
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Motoring Editor
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Joined: 08 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 997 S from Border Reivers: engine failure Reply with quote

kye_997 wrote:
All-
I am sure that there is a lot of knowledge on here regarding bore scoring and the consumer act. I have issues and would like input on the best way forward.

Purchased the car a 997 S from Border Reivers with a 6 month warranty in October last year. 50% cash and 50% on HP through Evington/Arkle finance.

It has been a nightmare to be honest. I took my time to buy the right car, border rievers confirmed the car was perfect in every way, previous owner on the F1 team at maclaren full service history etc etc. car was advertised with 59K miles and I paid top money for it. i had read about bore scoring and rievers also confirmed that they had checked out the car and there were no issues.

Anyway, in the first month of ownership oil alarm came on, spoke to border reivers who claimed all of these burn oil and to add which I did. This became a monthly problem .. by end of January 3 months into owning the car i had quite a nice noise at idle, check engine lights on and black soot on left hand side.

Took the car ASAP to autofarm in Oxford (brilliant guys) who did a full check on it - cylinder 6 bad scoring, check engine light due to O2 sensor most likely from the scoring/burning oil.

Informed Rievers immediately (Tom Fitzsimmons, owner) who replied that "Its a nightmare on these cars Kye, There is no guarantee when they will go or if they will go. We have stopped taking them into stock its not that we have sold one with a problem its just every 996-early 997 has a question mark,regardless of mileage. The last owner was an engineer & the car was exceptional & he had it checked out, we also had it independently bore scoped. We have never had to go to the warranty company with this issue however I will ask the question should their be an issue"

This is the last I have heard from this so called reputable company - countless letters/emails trying to get a remedy as per consumer act, none answered.

This is where the finance company comes in as they were advising how to handle towards the dealer and also tried unsuccessfully to get any action taken.

I was left with a car that could not be driven and needed very expensive work to put right so I rejected the car to Arkle. They agreed to come and pick up the car and refund the total minus fair usage.

so they picked up the car weeks ago which is in perfect condition apart from the engine.

this is where I would like anyone with experience to comment as I have chased the finance company for weeks , they continued to take payments even though they have the car. I received emails from them saying that they would be refunding but never mentioning the amounts or when, anyway finally i get a letter from the finance company basically saying that they do not believe the car is not fit for purpose, they want me to pay to prove that it is not (the issue happened within 6 months isn't it their obligation to prove), they also have said that the car was too expensive and have now valued it for 8,000 less than I paid and I shouldn't have paid so much for it .. also told me to go after the dealer for the deposit as I paid it (on their instruction) direct to the dealer ..

any thoughts ?


that is quite a shocking tale from the finance company and especially Border Reivers


on their website, this is the piece on their 6 month warranty
http://borderreivers.co/terms-conditions-2/

Quote:
Border Reivers use A1 Warranties and most cars we sell now come with a 6 month warranty

” A1 Approved Warranties “

With over 100 years of combined experience in our industry, the directors of A1 Approved have developed what we believe to be an unrivalled level of dealer and customer support to help promote and serve your business. 

A1 Approved offer a full range of warranty products to the motor trade to enable dealerships to market their vehicles more effectively and to assist in developing customer loyalty. 

A1 Approved’s on-line computer system is the most advanced in the business and is continually developed to meet our customer’s needs. We have kept the on-line process simple but effective and can tailor your account to suit your business needs. 

We at A1 Approved are the only warranty company that can handle, authorise and pay for a claim on the same day using our unique Claims Department fast-track system. 

A1 Approved is the only warranty company to offer one free phone number 0800 970 6860 for all enquiries – including claims.


http://www.a1approved.co.uk/
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kye_997
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A1 was amazing called them when it happened as had cover for the car and a rental car while mine was being repaired they wanted nothing at all to do with it. They declined all cover due to the 997 engine being a known issue.. so why they took the cover on it? Anyway bigger fish to fry for now.

I know this is a Porsche forum but I tell you guys this all makes me appreciate my NSX-R so much more. Now that's a solid engine !
 
  
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Desert Dragon
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Joined: 03 May 2017
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kye_997 wrote:
A1 was amazing called them when it happened as had cover for the car and a rental car while mine was being repaired they wanted nothing at all to do with it. They declined all cover due to the 997 engine being a known issue.. so why they took the cover on it? Anyway bigger fish to fry for now.

I know this is a Porsche forum but I tell you guys this all makes me appreciate my NSX-R so much more. Now that's a solid engine !


If its a nice car I'd get an independent inspection and then send it to Baz for the full works repair. Then get the bill settled through the courts. As someone else has advised one terse letter initially from your solicitor should focus their minds. Car dealers know most punters don't follow through with court action hence will disappear into their burrows until you stick a ferret down there. You need a ferret my friend Very Happy
 
  
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kye_997
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Joined: 04 Feb 2017
Posts: 10



PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much for all the input. will let you all know the outcome.
 
  
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peterzoom
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 27



PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like Border have their phone and Internet connection working now as I chatted to them today after reading their feature and advert in 911&Porsche world magazine.

However having read the comments above I am moved to look elsewhere!

Good luck with getting a resolution and hopefully sooner rather than later.
Interestingly, I notice in the magazine article there is particular mention of the warranty given with each car and the `fact` that they have never had a claim.
 
  
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Alam
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 269
Location: Buckinghamshire


PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shame, reputation tarnished, i'll be avoiding them!

Good luck and i hope justice is served! Pistols
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