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nigel99
Suzuka


Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 1111
Location: Surrey

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a complete ballache. The only avenue I would be pursuing is a full refund from the seller under the sale if goods act mentioned above. You can then spend your time looking for a new pride and joy rather than chasing your tail. There are plenty of good cars out there. Good luck with the legal advice, keep us updated.
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glenwells
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Aug 2015
Posts: 102



PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:48 am    Post subject: Car is going back to Dealership today Reply with quote

Update.

After a lot of email ping pong and being passed up the line now to the Head of Business but there is some positive movement.

I sought legal advice from Thompsons Solicitors as it is available to me prior to calling the Dealership and it was extremely helpful.
I had read, more than once, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) but they were able to clarify it in practice and put a letter together for me to go by recorded delivery to the Dealership.

I then rang them and had a long conversation with the Head of Business. My first impressions are that he was up front about their position. He wants their garage to verify the findings of SCSPorsche in part because of the amount of the bill for repair.
Another factor being that he knew that 997.1 cars 'can' suffer from bore scoring but like most people was under the impression that 997.2 cars in general do not. I expect to be reimbursed for my bill to SCSPorsche as a result.

Meeting a person from the dealership later today and being given a car for the full duration of the assessment and whatever happens after eg repair.

The solicitors letter is a 'Pre-Action position statement' that effectively states that if the garage dispute the findings of SCSPorsche it will follow the CRA directive and have an independent assessment for arbitration.

Additionally, for any offer of repair to be acceptable it must be undertaken at a mutually agreed garage use genuine parts and not cause any notable reduction in the value of the vehicle. Pleased about that part as it dismisses a cheap whack in steel sleeve job which I cannot accept.

IF that cannot be offered then I can move to a 'final rejection' for a refund or 'replacement for like' of the vehicle. They can legally make a nominal reduction for the mileage which is only 2K miles. Those are the rules of CRA when between 30 days and 6 months of purchase.
Also but very importantly the clock pauses as it were once you declare a problem to the garage eg at day 28 or 5 months 2 weeks etc. This stops spurious garages using stall tactics to reduce their liability.

Under the CRA you cannot ask or require a refund for a car after 30 days unless the company cannot offer a satisfactory repair or provide one in a reasonable time period without significant inconvenience.

Will keep anybody interested updated. If for nothing else a lesson in Consumer law, your rights and seeking redress from garages when things go wrong.

Regards
Glen Wells
 
  
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s70rjw
Monza


Joined: 26 Nov 2014
Posts: 192
Location: York


PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's good to hear of your progress, Glenn, seemingly in the right direction too.
 
  
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rhino-man
Trainee


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 97
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar situation with Audi last year.

I purchased a used approved vehicle with a two year warranty. After 9 months of ownership it went in for a minor service and "gearbox is a bit notchy, could you check it". They discovered an issue that required a software update and then declared they were unable to carry out the repair as I had had a engine map done (I hadn't) which therefore voided the warranty. After getting Audi UK involved and some similar advice from the CAB and pre-action letters, I ended up with a full refund as they were unable to honour the warranty as the remap was there when I purchased the vehicle.

Stick in there Glen, I'm sure you'll get there in the end. The law is on your side.
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2002 996 C2 Convertible
2002 986 2.7
 
  
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Swampy
Newbie


Joined: 22 Aug 2016
Posts: 47



PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All positive stuff Glen,well apart from the fact that 997/2 could be affected by this bore scoring issue Surprised
Please do keep us updated.


Swamps Smile
 
  
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glenwells
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Aug 2015
Posts: 102



PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:04 am    Post subject: Don't think many do Reply with quote

Swampy wrote:
All positive stuff Glen,well apart from the fact that 997/2 could be affected by this bore scoring issue Surprised
Please do keep us updated.


Swamps Smile


Hi
I really do not think that many of them do at this point in time. I found it a very lonely place when I found out the bad news.
I seriously trawled the internet here and the US for information, I dismissed secondhand accounts. I only spoke with two others here and one (via email) in the US that had problems.

Despite my personal pile of poop I believe that the Gen2 engine to be robust. They have been around for 8+ years and there must be plenty with 100K + on by now.

I was just very unlucky - DOH.

Me being captain cynical and all. I am waiting for the results of the garages own assessment of my car. It can only go three ways.
-Agree with the findings of SCSPorsche, - even odds
-play it down a bit and - 3 to 1
-least likely = no problem 8 -1



Regards
Glen
 
  
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C2.1GTS.2
Newbie


Joined: 06 Jun 2017
Posts: 7



PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don`t wish to know your personal affairs, but if you took a finance agreement out with the garage & signed that agreement on the garages premises, i would expect you have a pretty good case to be honest. The finance company would show a great deal of interest in the matter, as they will not want to be lumbered with a vehicle of high value that has mechanical troubles.
Perhaps another line of thought for you.
Lets hope you have a positive outcome quickly though.
 
  
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 803
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I accept that there was no direct link between our provisions and steel liners - for the sake of clarity can I confirm that all our cylinder repairs use aerospace alloy cylinders with Nikasil plating (as used reliably in GT3 and Turbo engines) and that our current development of a solution for the 9A1 Gen 2 cylinders is similarly alloy with Nikasil.

Although these have proven incredibly reliable and long lasting in all other models we will not release them in this model range until our test engines have undergone significant mileage and we have tooled up for efficient cost effective production on our CNC machines etc.

This is not because we have any doubts about our recent prototype engine but simply that we will not rush into things and as very few have failed so far - we feel we have time to test out our solution thoroughly first.

Good luck with your repair - you have taken your car to people we have great respect for - good choice.

Baz
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glenwells
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Aug 2015
Posts: 102



PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: No reference to Hartech Reply with quote

My previous statement containing -

Additionally, for any offer of repair to be acceptable it must be undertaken at a mutually agreed garage use genuine parts and not cause any notable reduction in the value of the vehicle. Pleased about that part as it dismisses a cheap whack in steel sleeve job which I cannot accept.


in no way referenced the work of Hartech who I already know do not promote for 911's such as the 997 Gen2.

In fact, it is unfortunate that they are still in the testing phase as it means it is not currently an option for me.

Everything is about timing!! Thumb

Regards
Glen Wells
 
  
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glenwells
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Aug 2015
Posts: 102



PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:15 am    Post subject: Car with main Porsche Dealer Reply with quote

Update from last week.

Did a car swap with the garage meeting half way and they took mine away to do their own assessments.
To save trawling back in this thread the garage did not like or accept the findings done by SCSPorsche - in part due to the cost.

Received a phone call last Friday from the garage saying the car was at the Porsche main dealers and they need my permission to do an 'oil consumption test'. In this case they are going to drive the car for 500 miles.
Whether in one hit or small trips like Jenson Button or Morgan Freeman in Driving Miss Daisy is unknown.

I already did that for 1700 miles but I guess they think I cannot measure out oil.
Having read reports including on here by Magic919 it does cause concerns. Guildford Porsche sent Magic919 away as his did not use more than 1L per 600 miles. A while later it chewed itself on the motorway - new engine.

I am being paranoid now but I think that they will come back saying it is using less than 1L per 600 miles dismiss the other symptoms and inform me to go forth and procreate.

Expect to hear in the next couple of days.

Regards
Glen
 
  
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MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5250
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fingers crossed for the right outcome. It seems mad to me that just because somebody writes down 1l/600 miles that makes it somehow reasonable!!

MC
 
  
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neil_911
Trainee


Joined: 04 Dec 2016
Posts: 73
Location: Doncaster


PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1L per 600 miles is ridiculous. Like a bloody 2 stroke.

You'd be filling up a litre of oil every 2 fuel stops?!?
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Basalt Black 997.2 C2S PDK
 
  
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nigel99
Suzuka


Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 1111
Location: Surrey

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fingers crossed for you Glen. Hopefully the car isn't at OPC Guildford!
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Magic919
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 297
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't knock Guidlford too much, as they were great whenever things have gone wrong. The 600 miles a litre is a Porsche thing.

I wasn't there complaining about oil use, I was there with a few other niggles. They mentioned they'd added oil, which was a surprise tio me as I'd probably only done a thousand miles..

In Glen's case, at least the bores have been inspected. Nobody had looked at mine and the car went bang before it was due back in.

Guildford were good when I was trying to get a new engine, rather than a rebuild. They've also helped with goodwill since.
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glenwells
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Aug 2015
Posts: 102



PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Oil amount Reply with quote

It appears that the amount of 1L per 633 miles is set and rather helpful for the garage should they need it.

This figure is regardless of whether it is a two year old car or 10 years old car 20K miles or 120K miles on the clock.
Additionally, same figure for oil use regardless of whether suspect Piston clearances, Valve guides, bore scoring etc etc.

A very high figure that is easy to use should the car be under a Porsche or other warranty.
Now I am really paranoid. Think it is time to put tin foil on my head as the garage is listening to me Laughing Laughing Laughing


On another note both sides of the engine showed bore scoring and both exhaust tips are completly coked up all the time and to a small extent the rear bumper.
I know that DFI engines can be attributed to some 'sooting' but is this all the time even on after a long long run?

Feedback form other owners would be appreciated.
Ta
Glen
 
  
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jonno_
Monza


Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 184
Location: Oxfordshire

2005 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some progress there Glen.

Wonder what state the valves are in if the tail pipes and bumper are heavily sooted? Surprised

Fingers crossed for you.
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neil_911
Trainee


Joined: 04 Dec 2016
Posts: 73
Location: Doncaster


PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glen,

My oil usage isn't anything i worry about - 1L in just over 2500 miles, but my car does "soot" when under load from low down revs. It seems to be more when up hill (which is when my friends noted it doing it going up stelvio) Laughing

It is very much a direct injection thing. Sometimes it doesn't soot under acceleration at all, sometimes it's noticeable in car headlights.

I think black tailpipes on a gen 2 can be easily mislead into oil being burnt. Though in your case i guess it must be some oil coking too.
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glenwells
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Aug 2015
Posts: 102



PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:23 am    Post subject: officially rejected the car Reply with quote

The garage continued to d**k me around.
They were told one month ago about the engine problem. They had the car back two weeks ago.
Had nothing in the way of an offer for repair.
Told me last week that they would finish up their assessment and get back to me and did not.
Told me yesterday that an employee had taken the car away at the weekend to a football match to put some miles on it.

Up early today for work so decided enough is enough. I have sent a three page letter officially rejecting the car on the grounds of:
Consumer Rights Act 2015 - 23 (2).
no repair in a reasonable amount of time.

Also breaches of contract under CSA Article 9, 10, and 11.

9 “Goods to be of satisfactory quality”
The vehicle was and is not free from minor defects.
10 “Goods to be fit for particular purpose”
A ‘reasonable man’ would expect to get many 10’s of thousands of trouble free miles from a ‘top shelf’ vehicle marque like Porsche with such low mileage and full dealer service history, that is clearly not the case.
11 “Goods to be as described”
Tetbury Audi advertise ‘Approved Used Cars’ that was evidently not the case. This vehicle was not subject to the most basic of checks, including safety checks, prior to purchase or collection. When I collected the vehicle the screen wash was empty within a few miles of my journey home, three of the tyres had low pressure, one at 20psi, and the oil level was well below minimum. The cars oil level did not drop to below minimum on the 120 mile drive home!
Had the oil level been checked by Tetbury Audi at any time the oil level would have been found to be ‘off the gauge’. Any qualified mechanic would have flagged it as an issue for further investigation and in doing so found the causes and I would not have purchased it.


The garage have 14 days to provide a full or (agreed) part refund then it is off to court.
Happy days!!!

Regards
Glen Wells
 
  
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FZP
Imola


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 816
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck. Let's hope they get through this phase quickly for you.
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Magic919
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 297
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a pain. Hopefully they'll see sense before you get to court.
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