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The remap dilemma - now mapped + exhaust

solaris

Well-known member
Joined
19 May 2013
Messages
95
So I'm approximately 5 months into ownership and I feel it's the time to start tweaking (note: not twerking) :lol: I've spoken to so many tuners about what's possible I'm left a little confused as to how I want to progress. For me two tuners have stood out:-

ES Motor
9e

I just need to sit down and think about what I want, One side of me is thinking re-map only and the other is pushing for an Exhaust, intercoolers & re-map. So why am I undecided? Let me explain. The more I drive my Turbo the more I think about how well the car would work if it was a manual. So with that in mind I want a re-map only as I might swop the car for a manual allowing me to go full beans on tuning, this eventually lands me in search engines looking for a 997 Turbo manual until I remember why I bought a tip :driving daily. To be honest in mixed traffic it's proven to be a blessing - it's ever so comfortable as a point to point cruiser I never feel tired after a long commute....and that leads me nicely back to the start of this paragraph.

It's a vicious cycle - I can now relate to the dilemma my wife faces when choosing her handbag....to an extent.

The solution - I think:
ES Motor map – I start off with a re-map only and see how life feels. The great bit of flexibility that ES Motor offer is the use of the access point device. Should I decide to stick with the tip & add hardware such as an exhaust + intercoolers the access point device allows me to send data back to ES Motor. They then adjust the map based on the logs and send it back to me so I can upload to my ECU.
 
Hi there,

Hopefully I can offer some advice here - I've done a fair bit of research on this and a good friend of mine has recently had his car tuned by the guys at ES. Having gone up there with him, met the guys and been out in a few of their cars I'm really toying with the idea of doing mine - something I'd not even considered until now.

One thing that is refreshing though, is that both ES and 9e seem to respect and speak highly of one another, which would suggest you wouldn't regret going with either.

The 9e solution seems to be more of an 'off the shelf solution', in that they have different packages of hardware upgrades and a map to suit each package, which is tried and tested and they do loads of. Ken is pretty up front about saying that their maps will be slower than the ES maps, and I think there's a good reason for this.

The Cobb Tuning access port that ES Tuning use keeps a log from a number of the telementry sensors on the engine. These are then Fed back to ES motors, and Emre at ES (who maps most of the world record holding 911's) uses this data to create a new map or a 'revision' which then gets sent back, loaded onto the car and the process begins again. They seem to typically do about 4 revisions on each map, so it's 100% perfect and specific to each engine.

No two engines are the same, especially when we're talking about engines that have thousands of miles on and varying ages etc. Therefore, without the feedback loop for each specific engine, the maps have to be somewhat more conservative. This isn't to say the 9e maps aren't quick, of course they are, I'm just trying to explain the difference between them as there's not much in the way of info on the web for perspective customers like yourself to read.

For me the added bonus with ES is that every time you modify the car further, and lets face it, it's hard to stop once you've started, you essentially get a free map. From what I understand this is pretty unheard of in the world of tuning and not helpful for someone like me who is fighting the urge to get mine ES'd!

Anyway, to cut a long story short, my mate is super happy with what ES has done to his car, and I shouldn't have gone with him as it's only the thought of my better half finding out what I'd have spent that's stopping me doing the same to mine right now!!

If you want his number drop me a pm - I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you wanted to ask him any questions.

If I were you I'd just pay them a visit though, you'll know if they're right for you when you meet them, plus if like me you've not been in a tuned 997 Turbo it'll be a massive eye opener to what can be achieved even from just a map.

Hope that helps.
 
You've done well lasting 5 months without going for a remap, I did mine about 3 weeks after buying it! Then the exhaust came along, then custom geo', still happy after 8 years of ownership. :D
 
Funtime said:
Hi there,

Hopefully I can offer some advice here - I've done a fair bit of research on this and a good friend of mine has recently had his car tuned by the guys at ES. Having gone up there with him, met the guys and been out in a few of their cars I'm really toying with the idea of doing mine - something I'd not even considered until now.

One thing that is refreshing though, is that both ES and 9e seem to respect and speak highly of one another, which would suggest you wouldn't regret going with either.

The 9e solution seems to be more of an 'off the shelf solution', in that they have different packages of hardware upgrades and a map to suit each package, which is tried and tested and they do loads of. Ken is pretty up front about saying that their maps will be slower than the ES maps, and I think there's a good reason for this.

The Cobb Tuning access port that ES Tuning use keeps a log from a number of the telementry sensors on the engine. These are then Fed back to ES motors, and Emre at ES (who maps most of the world record holding 911's) uses this data to create a new map or a 'revision' which then gets sent back, loaded onto the car and the process begins again. They seem to typically do about 4 revisions on each map, so it's 100% perfect and specific to each engine.

No two engines are the same, especially when we're talking about engines that have thousands of miles on and varying ages etc. Therefore, without the feedback loop for each specific engine, the maps have to be somewhat more conservative. This isn't to say the 9e maps aren't quick, of course they are, I'm just trying to explain the difference between them as there's not much in the way of info on the web for perspective customers like yourself to read.

For me the added bonus with ES is that every time you modify the car further, and lets face it, it's hard to stop once you've started, you essentially get a free map. From what I understand this is pretty unheard of in the world of tuning and not helpful for someone like me who is fighting the urge to get mine ES'd!

Anyway, to cut a long story short, my mate is super happy with what ES has done to his car, and I shouldn't have gone with him as it's only the thought of my better half finding out what I'd have spent that's stopping me doing the same to mine right now!!

If you want his number drop me a pm - I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you wanted to ask him any questions.

If I were you I'd just pay them a visit though, you'll know if they're right for you when you meet them, plus if like me you've not been in a tuned 997 Turbo it'll be a massive eye opener to what can be achieved even from just a map.

Hope that helps.

Thank you for the insight, i've got an appointment with ES Motor, it will be great to meet the team and discuss options and to have a test in one of the highly tuned ES Motor cars.
 
Martian said:
You've done well lasting 5 months without going for a remap, I did mine about 3 weeks after buying it! Then the exhaust came along, then custom geo', still happy after 8 years of ownership. :D

Which exhaust did you opt for?
 
Im in a similar position to the OP, but with mine being a manual I am debating whether to tune it or to move onto a gen2 turbo pdk as I think the delay in me manually changing gear compared to an auto would make the biggest improvement to the acceleration.

Also with the 997 turbo manual being pretty desirable at the moment, if I tune it, it may well put off any future buyers who would prefer a standard "non molested" car. Of course, I could revert the car back to stock before then I guess, but that would mean more expense/labour in doing so.

Im using mine as a daily, done 12k in it since May and drove it all through winter. I find the car has two completely different characters. In normal mode (which I leave it in most of the time) I find sometimes thinking maybe it needs more power, but then when I put in sports mode the car is just totally ballistic, although the super-sensitive throttle does make pulling away/clutch control a lot harder (at least for me).

Some good info on ES Motors, id been trying to find out more about people who had experienced their UK site.

Another thing to consider, is I am sure I read that the stock manual clutch cant handle as much power as the tip one can, so if you did do any sort of tune on a manual then you`d have to possibly factor in a new clutch.
 
The standard clutch can handle ~700Nm of torque, about 530Lb/ft or 540BHP in my experience. My clutch was fine with the remap only, then when the exhaust and a few more horses came along, it would slip at times, maybe 10-15% of the time under full load. Had a Sachs 890Nm clutch fitted a few years ago whilst the engine was out, no issues since.
 
I have been passenger in a 996turbo tip with paddle conversion, and some work done to sharpen the "brain" of the tip box.

I think if you went down that route you would have 0% regret at having a Tip, it seemed very fast/responsive with that set up, not PDK, but damned fast nonetheless.

Work was done by 9e.


One thing for sure, whichever one of these 2 companies you go with, you won't regret the decision to upgrade, it really brings these cars "alive".
 
Funtime said:
Hi there,

Hopefully I can offer some advice here - I've done a fair bit of research on this and a good friend of mine has recently had his car tuned by the guys at ES. Having gone up there with him, met the guys and been out in a few of their cars I'm really toying with the idea of doing mine - something I'd not even considered until now.

One thing that is refreshing though, is that both ES and 9e seem to respect and speak highly of one another, which would suggest you wouldn't regret going with either.

The 9e solution seems to be more of an 'off the shelf solution', in that they have different packages of hardware upgrades and a map to suit each package, which is tried and tested and they do loads of. Ken is pretty up front about saying that their maps will be slower than the ES maps, and I think there's a good reason for this.

The Cobb Tuning access port that ES Tuning use keeps a log from a number of the telementry sensors on the engine. These are then Fed back to ES motors, and Emre at ES (who maps most of the world record holding 911's) uses this data to create a new map or a 'revision' which then gets sent back, loaded onto the car and the process begins again. They seem to typically do about 4 revisions on each map, so it's 100% perfect and specific to each engine.

No two engines are the same, especially when we're talking about engines that have thousands of miles on and varying ages etc. Therefore, without the feedback loop for each specific engine, the maps have to be somewhat more conservative. This isn't to say the 9e maps aren't quick, of course they are, I'm just trying to explain the difference between them as there's not much in the way of info on the web for perspective customers like yourself to read.

For me the added bonus with ES is that every time you modify the car further, and lets face it, it's hard to stop once you've started, you essentially get a free map. From what I understand this is pretty unheard of in the world of tuning and not helpful for someone like me who is fighting the urge to get mine ES'd!

Anyway, to cut a long story short, my mate is super happy with what ES has done to his car, and I shouldn't have gone with him as it's only the thought of my better half finding out what I'd have spent that's stopping me doing the same to mine right now!!

If you want his number drop me a pm - I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you wanted to ask him any questions.

If I were you I'd just pay them a visit though, you'll know if they're right for you when you meet them, plus if like me you've not been in a tuned 997 Turbo it'll be a massive eye opener to what can be achieved even from just a map.

Hope that helps.

I need to correct a few points.

We have unlimited revisions on maps ( of course within reason e.g going from maf tuning to mafless always has an additional charge )

The cobb accessport - the reason why we won't use it is price. It is that simple. In order to activate you have to purchase their tune, which frankly is just not that great when compared for example to us or ES. So that means the customer then has to pay on top for custom tune as like form us or ES. This is why we have avoided that route.

We do have a dongle in progress which is tested and almost released that will enable customers to do the same as the accessport without having to pay for a tune that will be binned.

As for logging (which accessport does) we datalog when the car is in for tuning package, which means that there is no reason to datalog going forward. We know (or won't release a car) until it is perfect. So no real difference to ES. In cases where customers are not local, then we give them a cable so we can remote assist.

As you alluded too, both companies are complementary to each other, there is a respect for sure.

I chose not to go for absolute performance - that is a pure business decision and we run all our packages at 80% of what they were originally developed at in our shop cars. Of course on a shop car that is a different situation. I am not short changing customers by doing that - it is what we have developed, have tested extensively over the years and customers know.

Either Company will transform the car significantly.

Ken
 
9e are being modest. I've had 12 revisions on my tune and the turbo has sat with them for months where they've fine tuned it even further at no extra cost. They've even taken the turbo to Bruntingthorpe and RAF Woodbridge and dialled it in whilst on the fly. I plan to be at Terminal Velocity soon and am using race fuel and Ken was kind enough to say that he'd pop down if he has time with a specific race map for race fuel. He does this because he enjoys it as do the ESM guys. They're Porsche enthusiasts first. Can't go wrong with either.
 
Just as an observation, I wouldn't start with a remap. I'd start with the supporting mods, which in the case of a turbo engine wouild include the intercooler(s), downpipe/exhaust, and intake (all the stuff that the ECU can support), and only then I'd add the remap, which may also require colder spark plugs, bigger injectors and bigger/faster fuel pump. And I'd always be looking for a custom tune.

And then you need to remember tyres, brakes, suspension, geometry and all the other stuff to go, stop and corner.
 
I have heard nothing but good thing about 9e and ES motor. You cant go wrong with either. Maybe also do some research on Markski tuning too, he is extremely popular in the USA and around the world and again has a very good reputation and his support is second to none. One of the reasons I went with him is he custom tunes and can provide a remap on its own without having to buy intercoolers. Either way good luck! :thumbs:
 
e92 said:
I have heard nothing but good thing about 9e and ES motor. You cant go wrong with either. Maybe also do some research on Markski tuning too, he is extremely popular in the USA and around the world and again has a very good reputation and his support is second to none. One of the reasons I went with him is he custom tunes and can provide a remap on its own without having to buy intercoolers. Either way good luck! :thumbs:
I agree Markski a good honest tuner.
 
Update

I've opted to go with ES Motor. I recently missed out on some gt2rs intercoolers so as an alternative i'm going to be using a pair of do88 intercoolers and do88 turbo pipes. I think cooling is extreamly important to the VTG's so it made sense to swap out the intercoolers. The do88 stuff is reasonably priced too, slightly cheaper than new gt2rs ones.

I'm still not decided on an exhaust setup yet I really need to hear a few before I invest. I was dead set on a kline but i might swich to the ES Motor setup. They have a demo car for me to sample which is fabulous I want to ensure there are no aweful drones at normal speeds.

My car is booked in on friday, can't wait.
 

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