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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 4908
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaSource wrote:
Disco wrote:
nick w wrote:

Aargh......no, no no !...it needs the manual transmission, you need that interaction !


We all kind of called this one long before the announcement though didn't we : even if manual were made available (which it now has) the profile of the typical customer that would get the UK allocations was always likely to be such that non-PDK cars were likely to be right up there with unicorn tears for rarity. They will be like the Clubsport situation - far more of the used market wants them than the proportion of the first owner market that specced the supply of cars... nooo


Totally agree. That's my fear too. Me doing a track day a month makes me a whole lot less desirable than someone who bought 5 Panameras say (understandably from a commercial perspective). Hence the enthusiast spec will be the unicorn car.

Best of luck to the OP. It's his car which he should spec as he likes.
Personally not for me. I'd get a 991RS if I wanted PDK or a bargain 991.1 on the used market Smile


This ^^

If Porsche had let me buy one ( I didn't ask btw as i have no desire to play that rather odd knob measuring game with a car dealer) then i would tick the manual box before anything else.

On the road there really aint that much of a gap between a pdk GT3 and a pdk GTS. In fact for a road car i think the GTS would be a far better bet. For a track car, if you want to be the fastest Jonny out there then pdk all day long. If you want to get out of the car with a sense of achievement then you need a clutch and a pudding stirrer. Used market will crave the manual too. I still think the main reason Porsche advocate the pdk for GT cars is to mitigate warranty claims Very Happy
 
  
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Cheib
Monza


Joined: 20 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the "R Spec" will be as desirable as the track day spec

i.e.

PCCB's, Full Buckets, Manual

or

Cage, PDK, Steels, Buckets

They'll be the two most popular choices

Your spec of

PCCB's, Buckets, Cage, Manual

Will be uber rare I think as most people that do track days as much as you want Steel Brakes (because of cost) and PDK because it shines on track ?

If the deposit I was invited to place last week does turn into an allocation I'll be going "R Spec" though am tempted to go with the Cage because on 991.1 and 997.2 it makes such a huge difference to prices...although I think a lot of that is because non CS cars tend to have normal seats and I think the thing people really like/want are the Buckets. And when my kids are a bit older I might actually have the time to do some track days...if that does happen I'd swap the PCCB's for Steel discs.

I really am not intending to sell this car ever though...had no interest in buying a PDK car and think this could be the pinnacle of naturally aspirated manual gearbox 911's that I will ever be able to afford.
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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 4908
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheib wrote:
I think the "R Spec" will be as desirable as the track day spec

i.e.

PCCB's, Full Buckets, Manual

or

Cage, PDK, Steels, Buckets

They'll be the two most popular choices

Your spec of

PCCB's, Buckets, Cage, Manual

Will be uber rare I think as most people that do track days as much as you want Steel Brakes (because of cost) and PDK because it shines on track ?

If the deposit I was invited to place last week does turn into an allocation I'll be going "R Spec" though am tempted to go with the Cage because on 991.1 and 997.2 it makes such a huge difference to prices...although I think a lot of that is because non CS cars tend to have normal seats and I think the thing people really like/want are the Buckets. And when my kids are a bit older I might actually have the time to do some track days...if that does happen I'd swap the PCCB's for Steel discs.

I really am not intending to sell this car ever though...had no interest in buying a PDK car and think this could be the pinnacle of naturally aspirated manual gearbox 911's that I will ever be able to afford.


Why do you think pdk = track spec?
 
  
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nick w
Zolder


Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 5123
Location: Kent

2010 Porsche 997 GT3 RS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that I'm just an old fart....I just don't get PDK for 'fun driving'. I totally
get the town/urban driving advantages of PDK...but when i'm either on a
cross country road or on the Nordshliefe, I want to test myself and get that
huge satisfaction when it all works. Wink

...and I don't have an axe to grind.
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Cheib
Monza


Joined: 20 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:
Cheib wrote:
I think the "R Spec" will be as desirable as the track day spec

i.e.

PCCB's, Full Buckets, Manual

or

Cage, PDK, Steels, Buckets

They'll be the two most popular choices

Your spec of

PCCB's, Buckets, Cage, Manual

Will be uber rare I think as most people that do track days as much as you want Steel Brakes (because of cost) and PDK because it shines on track ?

If the deposit I was invited to place last week does turn into an allocation I'll be going "R Spec" though am tempted to go with the Cage because on 991.1 and 997.2 it makes such a huge difference to prices...although I think a lot of that is because non CS cars tend to have normal seats and I think the thing people really like/want are the Buckets. And when my kids are a bit older I might actually have the time to do some track days...if that does happen I'd swap the PCCB's for Steel discs.

I really am not intending to sell this car ever though...had no interest in buying a PDK car and think this could be the pinnacle of naturally aspirated manual gearbox 911's that I will ever be able to afford.


Why do you think pdk = track spec?


Because most people that do track days want ultimate lap times apparently and that means PDK. Personally I get more satisfaction from clipping an apex and getting my gear change right etc than letting the gearbox take away part of the fun!

I'd say it's not just my opinion but a pretty widely held one. Pretty sure AP has said somewhere in the last ten days that the RS will remain PDK only because its the right gearbox for track.
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Disco
Paul Ricard


Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3446
Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheib wrote:
If the deposit I was invited to place last week does turn into an allocation I'll be going "R Spec" though am tempted to go with the Cage because on 991.1 and 997.2 it makes such a huge difference to prices.


Objectively, if you have bucket seats then you have to be pretty insane not to specify Clubsport in my opinion. The reason is of course because it is one of very few things that Porsche do not charge you extra for and because the cage bolts in. If you don't want a cage : spec it, tell them to unbolt it before handover then store it along with the harness and extinguisher (which arrive at the OPC in boxes anyway). Should you resell : you have a Clubsport (which is important as a non-CS doesn't have the mounting plates for the cage) for the premium residual and it has cost you nothing more than a corner of your garage. Or you can sell the cage, harness and extinguisher on eBay for free money and your car still has the option code and cage mounting points if you subsequently sell.
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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 4908
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheib wrote:

Because most people that do track days want ultimate lap times apparently and that means PDK. Personally I get more satisfaction from clipping an apex and getting my gear change right etc than letting the gearbox take away part of the fun!

I'd say it's not just my opinion but a pretty widely held one. Pretty sure AP has said somewhere in the last ten days that the RS will remain PDK only because its the right gearbox for track.


Not sure where you get that idea from but its bollox. I know a lot of people who do track days and none of them are interested in lap time over enjoyment. Not a single one.
 
  
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nick w
Zolder


Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 5123
Location: Kent

2010 Porsche 997 GT3 RS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:
Cheib wrote:

Because most people that do track days want ultimate lap times apparently and that means PDK. Personally I get more satisfaction from clipping an apex and getting my gear change right etc than letting the gearbox take away part of the fun!

I'd say it's not just my opinion but a pretty widely held one. Pretty sure AP has said somewhere in the last ten days that the RS will remain PDK only because its the right gearbox for track.


Not sure where you get that idea from but its bollox. I know a lot of people who do track days and none of them are interested in lap time over enjoyment. Not a single one.


+1 Thumb

And as a footnote I've not met anyone either who holds
an opinion that they want an 'ultimate lap time'..
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LaSource
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 372



PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:
Cheib wrote:

Because most people that do track days want ultimate lap times apparently and that means PDK. Personally I get more satisfaction from clipping an apex and getting my gear change right etc than letting the gearbox take away part of the fun!

I'd say it's not just my opinion but a pretty widely held one. Pretty sure AP has said somewhere in the last ten days that the RS will remain PDK only because its the right gearbox for track.


Not sure where you get that idea from but its bollox. I know a lot of people who do track days and none of them are interested in lap time over enjoyment. Not a single one.


+2!!!
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LaSource
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 372



PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nick w wrote:
Senoj wrote:
Cheib wrote:

Because most people that do track days want ultimate lap times apparently and that means PDK. Personally I get more satisfaction from clipping an apex and getting my gear change right etc than letting the gearbox take away part of the fun!

I'd say it's not just my opinion but a pretty widely held one. Pretty sure AP has said somewhere in the last ten days that the RS will remain PDK only because its the right gearbox for track.


Not sure where you get that idea from but its bollox. I know a lot of people who do track days and none of them are interested in lap time over enjoyment. Not a single one.


+1 Thumb

And as a footnote I've not met anyone either who holds
an opinion that they want an 'ultimate lap time'..


To be fair there are some who do. Some can be the racer type.
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LaSource
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 372



PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheib wrote:
I think the "R Spec" will be as desirable as the track day spec

i.e.

PCCB's, Full Buckets, Manual

or

Cage, PDK, Steels, Buckets

They'll be the two most popular choices

Your spec of

PCCB's, Buckets, Cage, Manual

Will be uber rare I think as most people that do track days as much as you want Steel Brakes (because of cost) and PDK because it shines on track ?

If the deposit I was invited to place last week does turn into an allocation I'll be going "R Spec" though am tempted to go with the Cage because on 991.1 and 997.2 it makes such a huge difference to prices...although I think a lot of that is because non CS cars tend to have normal seats and I think the thing people really like/want are the Buckets. And when my kids are a bit older I might actually have the time to do some track days...if that does happen I'd swap the PCCB's for Steel discs.

I really am not intending to sell this car ever though...had no interest in buying a PDK car and think this could be the pinnacle of naturally aspirated manual gearbox 911's that I will ever be able to afford.


My experience (and preference):

Clubsport is a must for resale value to the enthusiast.
PCCB - Porsche latest spec ones are fantastic. I had them on the GT4. Drove my friends identical but steel car back to back at Spa. You can feel the lighter rolling masses and quicker change of direction. Yes actual retardation (and laptimes) probably not much different.
After 4000 miles of road and track, zero noticeable wear. Of course the GT4 is a slower car than GT3 so maybe kinder to brakes. But same feedback from friends with 991RS cars.

I would spec pccbs if I had another go 100%. It's a high value car where the used buyer likes them.

If one has an issue with cage and PCCB, they can be removed with steels for the brakes after purchase. Cost when new is a proportion of aftermarket cost.

That's my view - for the investor/flipper among the slot holders, my view is that the car fetching the highest premiums will be manual clubsport with pccbs. It will be differentiated from the 991GT3 and 991RS....and will fetch a higher price.

There....my crystal ball has been working overtime Smile
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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 4908
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaSource wrote:
nick w wrote:
Senoj wrote:
Cheib wrote:

Because most people that do track days want ultimate lap times apparently and that means PDK. Personally I get more satisfaction from clipping an apex and getting my gear change right etc than letting the gearbox take away part of the fun!

I'd say it's not just my opinion but a pretty widely held one. Pretty sure AP has said somewhere in the last ten days that the RS will remain PDK only because its the right gearbox for track.


Not sure where you get that idea from but its bollox. I know a lot of people who do track days and none of them are interested in lap time over enjoyment. Not a single one.


+1 Thumb

And as a footnote I've not met anyone either who holds
an opinion that they want an 'ultimate lap time'..


To be fair there are some who do. Some can be the racer type.


Apples to apples lap times are fun but a self shifter being fast r than a manual is kind of academic really as all things being equal it just will be.
 
  
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LaSource
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 372



PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. There are no prizes on track days and no racing.
A faster driver in a manual will drive circles around a slower driver with PDK. But that was ever thus.
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Cheib
Monza


Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 185



PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:
Cheib wrote:

Because most people that do track days want ultimate lap times apparently and that means PDK. Personally I get more satisfaction from clipping an apex and getting my gear change right etc than letting the gearbox take away part of the fun!

I'd say it's not just my opinion but a pretty widely held one. Pretty sure AP has said somewhere in the last ten days that the RS will remain PDK only because its the right gearbox for track.


Not sure where you get that idea from but its bollox. I know a lot of people who do track days and none of them are interested in lap time over enjoyment. Not a single one.


Read what I said...."apparently". I've got that idea from people saying they prefer PDK for track. As you can read it's not what I get satisfaction from on the rare occasions I do take my car on a track.

Feel free to shove your bollocks where the sun doesn't shine.
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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 4908
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheib wrote:
Senoj wrote:
Cheib wrote:

Because most people that do track days want ultimate lap times apparently and that means PDK. Personally I get more satisfaction from clipping an apex and getting my gear change right etc than letting the gearbox take away part of the fun!

I'd say it's not just my opinion but a pretty widely held one. Pretty sure AP has said somewhere in the last ten days that the RS will remain PDK only because its the right gearbox for track.


Not sure where you get that idea from but its bollox. I know a lot of people who do track days and none of them are interested in lap time over enjoyment. Not a single one.


Read what I said...."apparently". I've got that idea from people saying they prefer PDK for track. As you can read it's not what I get satisfaction from on the rare occasions I do take my car on a track.

Feel free to shove your bollocks where the sun doesn't shine.


So, myself, all the people i know, plus yourself do not prefer pdk for track. Apparently we are wrong because "people" are saying they do..

Ill leave mine out in the sun but thanks for the option Very Happy
 
  
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LaSource
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey we're all friends. Even if some of us are well jell Smile

Hope you get and enjoy whatever config you go for.
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andy996c4s
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Joined: 25 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:18 am    Post subject: Re: 991.2 GT3, DP says yes.... Reply with quote

[quote="Norfolk & Idea"]
Kryton wrote:


I'm on the list for one with my OPC but I reckon I've more chance of a threesome with Liz Hurley and Lucy Pinder tbh.


Just kicked them out of my place a couple of hours ago....... they said you have no chance! Very Happy
 
  
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Disco
Paul Ricard


Joined: 13 May 2008
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Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheib wrote:

Because most people that do track days want ultimate lap times apparently and that means PDK.


In my experience, that part of the market are the first owners who do 3 or 4 track days then sell the car and move to the next toy (they also tend to be the ones who ask "why would anyone need a cage in a road car"). And they are nothing whatsoever like "most". Most of the keyboard warriors on Pistonheads perhaps, but not most of the on track regulars unless things have changed completely in the year since I stopped being one of them. That isn't the resale market. This brings us back to the discrepancy between the cars specified by the people who get build slots and the people who end up having to buy in the aftermarket.

Think about it : why are Clubsports more valuable in the used market? Supply and demand - the proportion of people who want them used does not match supply from the cars originally delivered.

Every time Porsche launch a GT3 there are threads about specs, the same advice is offered, it is largely ignored and there ends up a shortage of cars in enthusiast spec.

For resale you want the spec that most will want and few slot holders will order, and all current indications are that this will be a manual Clubsport in black, white, red or a paint-to-sample colour. Spec ceramics if you want, but while likely to be desirable for resale they equally aren't likely to recoup your £6.5k premium.

But that is just market advice based on the history of the GT3 over the last dozen years. It is your money, so buy what you want to drive and leave what it will be worth if you want to get out of it to another day. Judge
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FredGT3
Silverstone


Joined: 06 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Disco"]
Cheib wrote:

Think about it : why are Clubsports more valuable in the used market? Supply and demand - the proportion of people who want them used does not match supply from the cars originally delivered.


This is a good point, my 996 wasn't a CS and although it did have buckets and cage I regretted not getting one. The 991 was an impulse buy when I saw it in the dealer but I wouldn't have had that impluse if it wasn't a CS.

Regards
Fred
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Cheib
Monza


Joined: 20 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disco wrote:
Cheib wrote:
If the deposit I was invited to place last week does turn into an allocation I'll be going "R Spec" though am tempted to go with the Cage because on 991.1 and 997.2 it makes such a huge difference to prices.


Objectively, if you have bucket seats then you have to be pretty insane not to specify Clubsport in my opinion. The reason is of course because it is one of very few things that Porsche do not charge you extra for and because the cage bolts in. If you don't want a cage : spec it, tell them to unbolt it before handover then store it along with the harness and extinguisher (which arrive at the OPC in boxes anyway). Should you resell : you have a Clubsport (which is important as a non-CS doesn't have the mounting plates for the cage) for the premium residual and it has cost you nothing more than a corner of your garage. Or you can sell the cage, harness and extinguisher on eBay for free money and your car still has the option code and cage mounting points if you subsequently sell.


That's a good point and certainly worth considering if my deposit turns into an firm allocation.

Main decision will be

Cage/No Cage
Folding/Full Buckets
Colour

First world problems!

Interesting my OPC sales chap said everyone who either has an allocation or is in with a shout wants a manual car.
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