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Palmball
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Joined: 05 Dec 2010
Posts: 52
Location: Loughborough


PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:33 am    Post subject: Back to a 911, GTS on order Reply with quote

Evening all, been a while since I posted on here since having my last 911 back in 2010, a 997.2 Turbo. Here's a quick picture of collection day for old times sake...




More recently progressed through a few AMG's (SLS, GT etc) and then a gen-2 R8 V10+, a spectacularly good car but for two things - an appalling (almost undamped) low speed ride and horrendous durability / reliability. I've gone through two in the last 12 months, the first one was replaced after 6 months and the second one behaved even worse than the first. Shame, because as something that feels really special and have a wow factor every single day (when it was working) I've not experienced better. Interesting reading some threads on here where some are considering a new R8, and I totally get why because it's certainly more of an event than most 911's ever will be.

Anyway, back to Porsche, having got my wife a Cayenne S diesel last year which was faultless, and just about to swap that for a new Macan Turbo next week, I'm feeling the Porsche bug again and thought I may as well swap my sports car for one that'll hopefully work everyday. Which leads me onto the 911, and the dilemma a few weeks ago was 'which 911'?

A Turbo S makes the most natural replacement for the R8 in terms of performance, but I always remember not actually liking my previous 997 Turbo as much as the Carrera's of their time.

And so it proved with the 991, after having a 991.2 C2S demo for a weekend followed by a Turbo S test drive at Silverstone, I'm afraid to say that I just found the C2S so much more enjoyable.










Sure, the C2S was nowhere near as fast as either the Turbo S or the R8, but it's as fast as anyone can really go on the public road (and I say that with utter conviction even coming out of a 600+hp car). It's also so much more 'drivable' on our congested, broken and heavily legislated roads and it can be revved out properly without needing to see 150 on the speedo; it's just a more feelsome experience more of the time. The new Carrera turbo may 'only' rev to 7.5k but it's more than the full-fat Turbo and, whilst the R8 revved to 9k, you try holding it anything above 7k for any period of time....you can't, it simply revs too fast and goes too fast!

I was also super impressed with the PDK, which is notably smoother than the Audi's DCT. The new chassis tech fitted to the demo cars I drove was astonishingly good; the rear wheel steering is spectacular in how it almost eradicates the 911's natural tendency to initially understeer, it makes the car über stable at speed and it just adds to the whole experience. It's also my first experience of PDCC and I must say, I do like the totally roll-free body control.

I was expecting to be a bit non-plussed about the new turbo engine, having had many turbocharged cars previously and never being that enthralled by them (BMW's newer M cars, AMG GT etc.). Coming out the spectacular N/A V10 in the R8 just added to the 911's uphill battle. But I'm VERY impressed, it's easily the best turbo I've driven by a considerable margin - throttle response is good and, crucially, it's consistent. OK, it's not spectacular because you can feel a momentary (and I mean split-second) delay when coming off then back on the throttle, but neither is it a detriment to the experience. But even better is that inside the car, it still sounds pure Porsche flat 6 - it has that hollow howl we all love, but maybe the volume is at 9 instead of 10 in the N/A cars.

Shame the sound is less spectacular on the outside, but then that's maybe the price for what was a very strong performance - I didn't feel I was lacking anything despite being 150+hp down on what I'm used to, however that'll be because the 911's power in the 3-6k rpm range will be very similar to, if not more than, the R8's at similar revs (where the extra power is at the top end where it was rarely driven). 25+mpg was also rather pleasant after being used to <15mpg.


So, Carrera it is then, and I placed an order for a C4 GTS a few weeks ago and am now just waiting for a build date.

I must admit I'm having second thoughts about choosing the 4wd version, because I do want a balanced car that can move around and I don't want an understeery car. It might sound like I should just save £6k and go for the 2wd but I went for a C4 on the basis I really like the light bar and it will enable deployment of it's power more of the time on our wet, greasy roads.

I also enjoyed the Quattro drivetrain in the R8; it was a very good system with an electrically-controlled centre diff allowing anything from full front to full rear wheel drive. I understand the 911 system is very similar, and the videos I've seen / the road tests I've read suggest the 4wd Carrera is definitely not prone to undertseer and can rotate with the best of them, however I welcome opinions from C4 owners.

Spec is a touch indulgent and currently sits as follows:

Carrera 4 GTS PDK
Carmine red
Black 20" centre locks
Alcantara package GTS Carmine Red
PDCC
-20mm PASM sports suspension
Rear-axle steering
Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake
LED main headlights
Porsche Entry & Drive
ParkAssist (front and rear) with reversing camera
Privacy glass (rear side windows and rear window)
Fuel filler cap with aluminium look finish
Power steering plus
Adaptive cruise control
Lane change assist
Speed limit display
Dimming mirrors and rain sensor
Light design package
GT Sport steering in leather
Heated multifunction steering wheel
18-way adaptive sports seats plus
Seat heating
Smoking package
Passenger footwell storage net
Steering column casing in leather
Sports seat plus backrests in leather
Extended interior package door panel in leather/alcantara
Sun visors in alcantara
Illuminated stainless steel door guards
Burmester


In the meantime, the R8 has sadly gone so whilst I wait for the 911 I've bought myself this Boxster S. It's in such good condition, almost new in some respects, and it makes a nice change to have something a bit older and down to earth (is it wrong I'm probably enjoying this more than the R8 Surprised ?). However it'll probably be my wife driving this as she's likes the whole cab thing (I'm not a fan really) and I'll happily run around in her new Macan Very Happy

 
  
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Seventy Seven
Suzuka


Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 1075
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great thread and car history.

GTS is a super choice.

Congrats and enjoy! Thumb
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weejimmy
Monza


Joined: 26 Mar 2014
Posts: 240
Location: Bucks


PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great write up. I got close to swapping but concluded that R8 V10 Plus just has too much as well! It also broke down on the test drive which was a new one for me!

I've run a 991.1 C4s for almost three years and I've never thought about undeersteer at all. It just goes where you point it. I can imagine a GTS4 with rear wheel steering will be immense. I hope so, because I've put a deposit down on one!

My spec is almost identical to yours. Carmine red, GTS alcantara, burmester, but without radar cruise or lane change. The Lane change indicators looked awful on a loan car I had a while back so a definite no-no for me. Just cheap and naff looking. I'm also not a fan of PSPlus. I ordered it on my C4s but got it turned off. I didn't like how it felt in transition between 30-50mph. There was a point where the weighting felt wrong resulting in a momentary loss of confidence in what the rear was doing. Had it deactivated and have never looked back.

When will you get yours? The dealer reckons Sept for me.

Last edited by weejimmy on Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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findtom
Monza


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 212
Location: UAE


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A really interesting read. I sold my GTS (991.1), last year and am looking to order either an R8 or a GTS 991.2, soon. I would be interested in knowing more about the issues you had with the R8. I did not know they were that unreliable.

As way of some context, I have had 3 991's over the last 3 years and wonder if I might offer some thoughts on your options?

My idea spec is very much the same to yours, ceramics, Burmester, leather covers steering column, many the same things.

I'm guessing you like the car to handle hence the -20mm PASM and rear steer, (both a must have in my book). But the Power Steering Plus (PSP) is a complete juxtaposition.

I had PSP on my first 991 and thought it was OK, and that it "wasn't a bad thing". I was wrong and I would honestly steer (sorry), away from it. It does take away "something" from the experience. However, it can be removed (£200) by the OPC.

To be fair I'm quite hard core now, I'm looking at racking bucket seats and maybe a rear seat delete!

Regards,

Tom
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weejimmy
Monza


Joined: 26 Mar 2014
Posts: 240
Location: Bucks


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

findtom wrote:
However, it can be removed (£200) by the OPC.


You were fleeced if they charged you £200 to remove it! All cars have it. It is just a software code. I can imagine being charged to 'add' it if it wasnt 'ordered' when the car was built, but to turn it off on a car where it has already been paid for?!!! Hand
 
  
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findtom
Monza


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 212
Location: UAE


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Er, how long have you owned a Porsche? Everything is at least £200!

I am aware every car has it, but they will still charge you to remove it. And you will remove it once you try a car without it....

Tom
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weejimmy
Monza


Joined: 26 Mar 2014
Posts: 240
Location: Bucks


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

findtom wrote:
Er, how long have you owned a Porsche? Everything is at least £200!

I am aware every car has it, but they will still charge you to remove it. And you will remove it once you try a car without it....

Tom


Er 3 years... See my post above where I also queried it as a spec choice. Mine was turned off FOC by my OPC.

It is just a programming change. My OPC was just worried that once turned off it wouldn't be able to reactivated. So if I changed my mind it might get 'tricky'. Have never regretted having it turned off. The car just feels appropriately weighted for a sports car now and not excessively heavy, even at parking speeds.

It's sad how many Porsche salesman just say "Oh you'll want that sir". So it gets ticked on an order form at the 11th hour. A bit like plastic silver petrol filler cap!

Last edited by weejimmy on Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:07 pm; edited 4 times in total
 
  
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HSC911
Magny-Cours


Joined: 23 Jul 2014
Posts: 2744
Location: Bedford


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Palmball bye

Stunning cars, house and erm...something else in the background of your first pic.....yes, the Rothman's 911 Hand

Great read, thanks.

Thumb
 
  
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findtom
Monza


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 212
Location: UAE


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

weejimmy wrote:
findtom wrote:
Er, how long have you owned a Porsche? Everything is at least £200!

I am aware every car has it, but they will still charge you to remove it. And you will remove it once you try a car without it....

Tom


Er 3 years... See my post above where I also queried it as a spec choice. Mine was turned off FOC by my OPC.



Sorry mate, I should have been clearer, it wasn't a real question. I remember you asking on the forum about turning it off.

While a good OPC may turn it off for free, it seems to be the norm that many will charge you for it.
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Norfolk & Idea
Imola


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 817
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great write up. I enjoyed reading it. And yes, you'll enjoy the Macan too. When the Mrs. and I go out I always grab the Macan keys first! It's a surprisingly capable car....
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Palmball
Trainee


Joined: 05 Dec 2010
Posts: 52
Location: Loughborough


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys, glad you liked the read. Keeps me entertained and adds to the anticipation in this bleak waiting period Laughing


weejimmy wrote:
Great write up. I got close to swapping but concluded that R8 V10 Plus just has too much as well! It also broke down on the test drive which was a new one for me!

I've run a 991.1 C4s for almost three years and I've never thought about undeersteer at all. It just goes where you point it. I can imagine a GTS4 with rear wheel steering will be immense. I hope so, because I've put a deposit down on one!

When will you get yours? The dealer reckons Sept for me.


Broke down on test drive you say? I can relate, because when I took my first R8 out for test drive (back in late 2015, one of the first gen-2's in the country) I managed to break that too.

Driving over a relatively shallow puddle on the side of the road (and I mean shallow - like 1-2 inches and only one side of the car going over it), the water managed to rip a cover off the underside. Behind that cover was a chunky wiring loom attached to the tyre pressure monitoring module....the whole lot was f*cked. I should have heeded that warning as it kind of set the scene for how durable (or should I say inadequately developed) the car proved to be.

Good to hear your view on the 4wd, I think I'm going to stick with that layout. Yep, agree lane change is far from pretty but once you're used to it...

No idea when I get mine but I do hope it's not September. I have the second GTS order (and first C4 GTS) in my dealer, Leicester. They've indicated around June time, hopefully when I pick up the Macan later this week they can give me a firmer date!



findtom wrote:
A really interesting read. I sold my GTS (991.1), last year and am looking to order either an R8 or a GTS 991.2, soon. I would be interested in knowing more about the issues you had with the R8. I did not know they were that unreliable.

I'm guessing you like the car to handle hence the -20mm PASM and rear steer, (both a must have in my book). But the Power Steering Plus (PSP) is a complete juxtaposition.

I had PSP on my first 991 and thought it was OK, and that it "wasn't a bad thing". I was wrong and I would honestly steer (sorry), away from it. It does take away "something" from the experience. However, it can be removed (£200) by the OPC.


Hi Tom, mmm....R8 issues? I don't have all night you know Wink

Seriously, they were both appalling. Minor stuff like creaky seats (they all do it with the sports seats because so much of the seat STRUCTURE is made of cheap plastic), failing electronics (virtual cockpit broke, regular stop start system failures on both cars at least every week) to more serious stuff like paint coming off, misfiring and fuel pump issues (the latter two items afflicting both R8's at almost the same 4k mileage). Finally, clonking & squeaking suspension which afflicted all four the gen-2 R8's that I've ever driven and it's even referred to in some press reports and Youtube vlogger videos so it seems to be a poor characteristic and, again, just smacks of poor development.

I needed the first R8 to be recovered twice as I couldn't drive it to the dealer. Both cars I had for c.6 months and both of them spent 3 months each in the workshop.

Lovely (honestly, really lovely) car to look at and drive, but shocking reliability. I am actually gutted but no way I could continue with a car like that.

The worst bit is Audi dealers. They have little idea what they're doing on them, can't grasp the concept that they might need to offer a certain level of service for a customer buying their flagship product and they seemingly cannot follow simple instructions like 'do not wash it' (I asked this because the front of my car was covered in paint protection film which doesn't take kindly to jet washing. Their continued disregard for this cost them when inevitably, they damaged the film). I've had no such issues over the last 10 years with BMW, Merc, Jaguar or Porsche dealers....so I would suspect the problem is not me!

Back to Porsche and yes, I certainly do like a car that 'handles' hence the suspension choices, but I must admit I think the -20mm cars look superb with what I reckon is a perfect stance.

Advice heeded on PSP, as this seems a common theme. I'll need to ask if the car I test drove and liked so much had it or not (I suspect not given I couldn't feel anything untoward) but on the basis of all these recommendations I think I'll delete that bit. Might get leather door sills instead lol!



HSC911 wrote:
Hi Palmball bye

Stunning cars, house and erm...something else in the background of your first pic.....yes, the Rothman's 911 Hand

Great read, thanks.

Thumb


Thank you Thumb And yep, that Rothmans was getting all the attention that day despite the weather! Remember it well, collecting my 911 Turbo (which back then was the fastest thing I had ever been in by a sizeable margin) on what was the worst British winter I can remember.



Norfolk & Idea wrote:
Great write up. I enjoyed reading it. And yes, you'll enjoy the Macan too. When the Mrs. and I go out I always grab the Macan keys first! It's a surprisingly capable car....


Good good Very Happy. You know, I've not driven a Macan yet but just took a punt that it'd be like the Cayenne only a bit more sporty / agile.

I'll be honest, I cannot wait for Saturday - the Cayenne was sold 6 weeks ago and the R8 went 3 weeks ago so we've both been driving cars that have been borrowed from friends. It was one of those (a friends Boxster) which convinced me to buy one until the 911 comes!
 
  
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weejimmy
Monza


Joined: 26 Mar 2014
Posts: 240
Location: Bucks


PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Palmball wrote:

Broke down on test drive you say? I can relate, because when I took my first R8 out for test drive (back in late 2015, one of the first gen-2's in the country) I managed to break that too.

Driving over a relatively shallow puddle on the side of the road (and I mean shallow - like 1-2 inches and only one side of the car going over it), the water managed to rip a cover off the underside. Behind that cover was a chunky wiring loom attached to the tyre pressure monitoring module....the whole lot was f*cked. I should have heeded that warning as it kind of set the scene for how durable (or should I say inadequately developed) the car proved to be.



SNAP!!!! That is spooky. Exactly the same issue. Hit a puddle on the nearside. Nothing awful. The chassis took it no problem at all, but the dash lit up like a Christmas tree and the TPS went off, plus there was a godawful racket coming from the back. I thought the wheel arch liner had dropped, but nope. It was the access flap dragging on the road. I managed to wrench the flap back around so it was facing backwards instead of forwards and drove very slowly back to the dealer.

I took the car out again twice more over the following weeks and the TPS warning was still active. Apparently they couldn't sort it. Maybe I tore the loom!

Question

BTW - a friend had an 08 pate A6 that did EXACTLY the same thing. Clearly they've not learnt!

Palmball wrote:

Advice heeded on PSP, as this seems a common theme. I'll need to ask if the car I test drove and liked so much had it or not (I suspect not given I couldn't feel anything untoward) but on the basis of all these recommendations I think I'll delete that bit. Might get leather door sills instead lol!


You will do well to find an OPC who REALLY knows the spec of their own cars that well. They will say they do, but... apparently it's not uncommon for the specs to be keyed in wrong as it's a manual process.

Maybe PSP has been improved with the Gen 2? A mate just got a 991.2 CS and he didn't get it based on my advice and is as happy as Larry.
 
  
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Palmball
Trainee


Joined: 05 Dec 2010
Posts: 52
Location: Loughborough


PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

weejimmy wrote:


SNAP!!!! That is spooky. Exactly the same issue. Hit a puddle on the nearside. Nothing awful. The chassis took it no problem at all, but the dash lit up like a Christmas tree and the TPS went off, plus there was a godawful racket coming from the back. I thought the wheel arch liner had dropped, but nope. It was the access flap dragging on the road. I managed to wrench the flap back around so it was facing backwards instead of forwards and drove very slowly back to the dealer.

I took the car out again twice more over the following weeks and the TPS warning was still active. Apparently they couldn't sort it. Maybe I tore the loom!



You're bloody joking - you too?!! That's unreal. Well, my plot thickens.....

On New Years Eve just gone, driving my (now second) R8 on the same road that I managed to damage the demo R8 the year previous (the road is 1/2 mile from were I live), I drove over the same puddle. Well, I assume it was made up of different water Laughing The puddle forms on the inside of a left hand bend so you naturally clip the puddle with the left hand side of the car when driving round the bend. And guess what, it ripped off the same flap....but this time it's on my own car Sad

Cue the grinding noise that sounds like the wheelarch liner coming off but this time I'm at the thick end of having to sort it out. I popped the broken flap up into the chassis and took it to Audi, where I saw exactly what it did - the wiring loom basically shreds itself on the ground (because even by the time you stop it's destroyed) hence the dash lighting up like a Christmas tree. It cost me nearly £1k to have the loom repaired (it has to be repaired at the point it's shredded as it basically goes deep into the chassis) and the TMPS module replaced.

That was the straw that broken the camels back for me. And you have just confirmed to me that it's definitely not just me (I did have my doubts) and that a) this is a serious design fault and b) the car is spectacularly under-developed.

The selling dealer fell out with me when I was trying to get my first one replaced (which I achieved in the end) so they wanted nothing to do with me thereafter (and told me this very directly) . The whole experience and lack of support from Audi UK was shoddy. The second dealer I used (one more local to me) to sort all the issues with the second one were even more incompetent on the car, but at least treated me better. I ended up suing the selling dealer to get my money back and within a couple of weeks of the initial letters they made an offer which I was willing to accept. I'm sad it had to go, but equally I'm relieved as it was getting beyond a joke.

So, new Audi R8?.....STAY WELL AWAY!
 
  
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Kryton
Monza


Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 212
Location: Coniston, Lake District


PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was waiting for the GT model but after I read of your/others problems on the R8talk thread I decided to stick with Porsche Thumb
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Palmball
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Joined: 05 Dec 2010
Posts: 52
Location: Loughborough


PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kryton wrote:
I was waiting for the GT model but after I read of your/others problems on the R8talk thread I decided to stick with Porsche Thumb


Ah yes, I remember your post. Wise decision.

I kept my opinions largely to myself on there for a couple of reasons. Firstly, there's a lot of fanboys who will not be told otherwise and secondly, I was in the middle of litigation with Audi so didn't want to jeopardise anything.
 
  
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weejimmy
Monza


Joined: 26 Mar 2014
Posts: 240
Location: Bucks


PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you've had a total mare! When it happened to me the dealer described it as a 'freak incident'. Clearly that's not the case.

I wonder if it's more of an issue with RHD cars as kerbside puddles will be on the sameside as the flap? Our German friends are more likely to see water ingress on the right hand side of the car from kerbside puddles ... unless there is flap on that side as well of course!

Question

Curious that it was even a problem with an older A6!!!!

Regardless sounds like I had a lucky escape. The Audi dealer had three cars in stock and offered me an amazing PX for mine couple with a big discount against one of those cars. Which was curious. This was Dec last year... I asked when the car was manufactured and it was Q1 2016. So it had basically sat around in the dealer network for the best part of a year. No wonder they were keen to shift it.

The demo car is still on site. I see it when I pass by on the way to work... so there is one on the Audi Used Website that has had the flap broken and refixed... plus two of yours from the sounds of it!

As you say, stay well clear!

Thumb
 
  
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tim993
Shanghai


Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4951
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Afetr reading several reviews no, the GTS does indeed look to be a great buy.

So I priced one on the configurator with to a nice but not too indulgent spec....

If you want PCCBs, Sports Buckets Seats and that tasty light blue, then even on the 2wd manual GTS (probably the best of the lot) you are looking at a £110k car... Surprised

<gulp!>
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6appeal
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Posts: 381



PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can get a bit crazy hey... When i was speccing my car i tried to keep track that its £76k for a base carrera, which is epic driving machine to start with... my man maths justified up to £90k, £14k of bits on top.

So nearly another £35k.... its all man maths, whatever puts a grin on your face and is of value for what you want. Very Happy
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Present:
991.2 Carrera, SC, PDK, Toys Smile
Yamaha MT01
VW T2 Bay Window 1976

Past:
640d GC, 635d Coupe, RS6 C5, Audi TT 225 Coupe, Astra with wind up windows, Citroen ZX, Rover 213, yes behold, a Rover 213... Renault 5
 
  
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Palmball
Trainee


Joined: 05 Dec 2010
Posts: 52
Location: Loughborough


PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, damn Porsche and their bloody configurator! Just one more thing, and then another aaaand another.....hmmm!

Anyway, slightly OT but wifey picked this up today. She's like a pig in sh!t with her fancy new SUV and (my) temporary Boxster Laughing No confirmed build date on my GTS yet though Mad

It's bloody spectacular. That is all!









 
  
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scoot
Monza


Joined: 09 Mar 2015
Posts: 153
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Palmball wrote:
Yep, damn Porsche and their bloody configurator! Just one more thing, and then another aaaand another.....hmmm!

Anyway, slightly OT but wifey picked this up today. She's like a pig in sh!t with her fancy new SUV and (my) temporary Boxster Laughing No confirmed build date on my GTS yet though Mad

It's bloody spectacular. That is all!











Oh my word that looks spectacular Smile
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Dave
991.1 C2S MY2013, Manual, Sports Chrono, PSE, Guards Red
EX - 997.1 C2S MY2005, Manual, Sport Chrono, Atlas Grey
 
  
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