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SamUK
Montreal


Joined: 24 Jan 2016
Posts: 536
Location: London


PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject: Durametric Codes - Help Reply with quote

Right...my code reader is finally here..

Connected up and got afew codes..

this is around my issue with the hesitation i get at 1200rpm which was random, but now constant after my plug and coil-pack change.

map was removed from the car..and 2 days later my CEL has come one and not going away

P0420
Bank 1 catalytic converter system insufficient effect


P0430
Bank 2 catalytic converter system insufficient effect

Does this mean both my o2 sensors are faulty?

Anyone know cost of replacement? can i use a bosh part? can this be changed easily from under the car?

http://www.eurocarparts.com/lambda-sensor

Sam

Last edited by SamUK on Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5174
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds more like failing / failed catalysts than sensors to me.

MC
 
  
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SamUK
Montreal


Joined: 24 Jan 2016
Posts: 536
Location: London


PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
Sounds more like failing / failed catalysts than sensors to me.

MC


they are new 200cell big bore cats that were installed few months back by
top gear
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30187
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
Sounds more like failing / failed catalysts than sensors to me.

MC

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SamUK
Montreal


Joined: 24 Jan 2016
Posts: 536
Location: London


PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just spoke to top gear - they said when the map they do a o2 off..so the error does not come up... Dont know

also saying like above the sensors are more then likely ok..

still saying they have done many porsches and no issues with exhaust and map..

though did not make sence..as if i did not have the map..would that mean i would leave with my CEL light on? Confused
 
  
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Chris_in_the_UK
Paul Ricard


Joined: 19 Mar 2014
Posts: 3479
Location: Harrogate


PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P0420

Catalytic conversion

K NOTE
The catalytic converter monitor compares the amplitude of the oxygen sensor behind the catalytic converter with the amplitude of a computed limit catalytic converter during defined air gulping and enrichment phases. The amplitudes allow conclusions to be drawn about the ability of the catalytic converter to store oxygen.
Diagnostic conditions
I Engine start temperature > -15°C (5 °F)
I Catalytic converter temperature 385 .... 635°C (725-1175 °F)
I Loading of activated charcoal filter < 8
I Oxygen sensing in front of catalytic converter active
I Oxygen sensors behind catalytic converter ready for operation
I 50 seconds (cumulative) within following load/rpm range
I Engine speed 1280 .... 2880 rpm
I Engine load (relative filling) 22 .... 41%
I No fault oxygen sensors, tank vent, secondary-air pump relay, secondary-air valve relay, throttle adjusting unit, mass air flow sensor, no misfire.
E The diagnostic conditions can also be established using the PIWIS Tester via the short test "Catalytic conversion". It is not necessary to have the vehicle in motion for this.
Possible fault causes
J Oxygen sensors in front of and behind catalytic converter swapped (position in exhaust assembly)
J Valve lift error
J Aged oxygen sensor behind catalytic converter
J Catalytic converter faulty (pre-catalytic conversion rate too low)
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Demort
Paul Ricard


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 3086
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a standard car then the cats are not doing their job well enough , i would suspect its seeing switching on the post cat sensors .. on 200 cells .. then thats going to be normal as they aint any good at being a filter for the exhaust gasses .

Cant comment on maps knocking out the post cat lambdas to not generate a fault code im afraid ... but it would be interesting to see if your car will pass an mot on emissions .

The sensors will have no effect on the running problems you have .. my crude understanding is that the exhaust gass flow has been altered and is no longer as efficent as it was .. hence the need for a map to compensate .

This area is Kens field i feel ( 9 excellence )
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Matt Seabrook
Monza


Joined: 27 Apr 2014
Posts: 152
Location: Cornwall


PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may not even be an issue with the rear sensor switching. The engine management will carry out what's caused an oxygen storage test on the cats this is when the fuelling is altered while you are driving and it will measure the time the cats can store oxygen. A good OE cat will store oxygen for ten seconds or more. This will not show up as a rich lean type switching of the post lambda sensor.
 
  
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SamUK
Montreal


Joined: 24 Jan 2016
Posts: 536
Location: London


PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reset the codes..

started the car..and then i got this and the CEL light came on again

Bosch Digital Motor Electronics Motronic 7.8.1

Current Fault Codes
P0300:
Misfiring checksum error

P0301:
Misfiring cylinder 1


Wayne suggested i swap the coil packs out with another cylinder..to see if its the coilpack...


i cleared the codes again..started the car and nothing has come back..

also noted the real time values = can monitor everything though little beyond me..
 
  
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SamUK
Montreal


Joined: 24 Jan 2016
Posts: 536
Location: London


PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

went out for a drive..with the laptop..

selected the cylinder misfire options 1 - 6..

car was driving okay apart from the usual hesitation.. though i think i did not get it at first and then after a few tries it started..

also managed to save the graph data to excel.. iwas thinking why 9m did not give this to me when i asked for it...as there diagnostic machine will be more advanced...

anyhow..its raw data..and i could see the occasional misfire on cylinder 1..though it was just a couple of times and valued at 1.

CEL did ot come on for the duration of the 15min drive..

had some msgs back from wayne who i am going to see next month..said car issues need to be resolved before he can look into mapping and to possibly fix the low end hesitation.. he suggested putting the car back to stock..to see if this resolves the issue - im really not up for paying someone £500 odd to pop the standard cats on...

9M said i need to get this diagnosed on a rolling road and said to speak to wayne...

so really stuck now!


this car is driving me nuts!!!
 
  
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911tom
Albert Park


Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 1537
Location: Buckinghamshire


PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you had no problems with it before the cats were swapped then surely it is a good idea to put the old ones back on. Swapping them back will not be a big job as the rusty bolts would have already been attended to. Also will top gear not help you out at all? I can not remember the whole story but did they not supply and fit?

You are getting passed around a little here and I can understand why to be honest. I can see why 9m are reluctant to get overly involved and Wayne will not touch it until it is running correctly. They are likely concerned about a no fix no fee type of situation. Problems like this can eat loads of time, time that is hard to bill for. I'm not in the trade but can relate it to my own work. My approach would be;

1. Refit stock cats. See how it drives over the next 200 miles and check for codes.

2. If you are getting misfires and the coils look tired. Don't dick about swapping one at a time change all 6 along with plugs and be done with it. At least then you will know your coils are good for the foreseeable future. These are after all serviceable parts.
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SamUK
Montreal


Joined: 24 Jan 2016
Posts: 536
Location: London


PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just some history...

Random hessitation started after cats,mufflers and map.

Had he codes read at my local indi..Though no CEL light..Live data suggested miss fire..

I then had plugs and coil packs changed at 9m..

Hessitation then happening all the time...9m spent the following morning trying to diagnose, also removed the plugs and coils to again..Said it's not misfire..And possibly fuel related..However said they are not sure and pointed me to Wayne and said this would be best looked at on a rolling road.

Had msgs back from Wayne, heis more then confident the issue is to do with the variable valve timing that needs to be adjusted to suit the new exhaust...And he is able to do this..

Topgear on the other hand..Been helpfully, however also said they have fitted the system to many cars and not seen this issue.

Map was removed last week..And stock was put back on.
 
  
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911tom
Albert Park


Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 1537
Location: Buckinghamshire


PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh okay Sam, sorry mate I'm having difficulties keeping track of the various threads. So if you are sticking with the new cats can Wayne not proceed with trying to map the car to suit them?

Have you cleared the cat fault code and has it come back? Could be the car was started with the sensors unplugged. Also top gear probably do map them out but now you are back on the stock map.... Are they plugged in?
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SamUK
Montreal


Joined: 24 Jan 2016
Posts: 536
Location: London


PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top gear said all sensors go back in that are removed from the stock system..

yup wayne said if the misfire error is there that needs fix it first..but this is the fiist time i had seen it.

no codes came yesterday..i will drive the car this week and see how it goes..

heading to the MOT garage to get through the emissions and get the numbers for wayne incase the cats not working as they should..

will call local indi like rpm to see what they suggest about misfire i saw on cylinder 1 aswell..
 
  
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SamUK
Montreal


Joined: 24 Jan 2016
Posts: 536
Location: London


PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Started the car this morning, and left it idle for 3 odd mins..

CEL light on, misfire on 3 cylinders noted.

CEL light went away a min or so after.

I cleared the code and the car drove fine to work.

So seems to be a cold start issue.. will know more over the next few days.

Found this.. https://www.renntech.org/forums/topic/37022-997-gen-1-2006-c4s-misfire/

And got this from it:

I think I have the answer, or at least I hope I do. My 2005 C2 is in the shop for cold start misfires. Runs great, the only thing obviously wrong was the check engine light. However, the fault codes indicate random cold start misfires in all cylinders. I've had my software updated twice, plugs changed and compression checked. Interventions have led to the light going off for brief periods of time, from a week to as long as several months, but it hasn't lasted.
Turns out, a certain number of the 1st 2 yrs of the 997 (2005, 2006) have had problems with the lifters. A slow leak allows the oil to drain out over time, which causes the lifter to function suboptimally. If the car is cold, there will be misfires on startup until the fluid pressure builds back up in the lifter.
This is a documented problem that Porsche technicians should be able to look up. The fix appears to be replacing the lifters. I'm waiting to sort things out with my warranty people and am hoping this will fix my problem. Sounds reasonable enough to me. See if your mechanics think this is a possible cause for your problems.

Also I have a BmC filter – my stock filters gone missing..thinking should I buy ther original one to see if this works?
 
  
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SamUK
Montreal


Joined: 24 Jan 2016
Posts: 536
Location: London


PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another interesting read..deems to be a common issue!

misfire on cold..

http://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/874203-05-997-1-c4s-misfire-bank-1-a.html

http://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/725505-2005-porsche-911-997-carrera-chronic-check-engine-light.html

http://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/642679-random-misfire-issues.html

Picked this out of it

I am aware of a similar situation where cold start misfire CELs were a challenge to resolve on a 2006 C2S.

The repair effort was focused on apparent cam timing variances.

A voltage variance (I don't know the details) was finally detected between cam banks and it was determined that an incorrect power lead had been tapped during a PSE retrofit.


the more i read..less its looking like a cat issue... Dont know
 
  
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Demort
Paul Ricard


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 3086
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A misfire fault code on 2-3 cyls on the same bank at or just above idle can be caused by the hi lift valve solinoid sticking , these can be intermitant but normally permanent .

Post here about it ..

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=117589&highlight=

Tappets are possible but a very expensive guess , hard to prove as the lambdas have to warm up before you get active adaptions and the tappets may well clear in that time .


This has all started since the mods i belive so we either have a fault from that or by coincidence something else has failed .


Need to know which cyls are misfiring and if its the same ones after several trips .
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SamUK
Montreal


Joined: 24 Jan 2016
Posts: 536
Location: London


PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This morning i got this

P0300
Misfiring checksum error


P0302
Misfiring cylinder 2


P0303
Misfiring cylinder 3


P0301
Misfiring cylinder 1


When i left work to come home little while ago..no CEL light...so no misfire..


i had the attached on the code reader...not as a fault though...
 



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Demort
Paul Ricard


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 3086
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok .. so that points towards the cam solinoids .. can you do a few more runs ( clear codes each time ) so we can confirm its x1 bank only ..

If so then ill go with the hi lift solinoid sticking ..

Post i linked is where i suggested swopping it side to side to prove it .. the fault will transfer to the other bank .

Ignore that test you have shown .. it has certain things you have to do to get them all saying ok .

Also .. what part of the country are you in ?
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Giff
Monza


Joined: 28 Apr 2013
Posts: 182



PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.amazon.co.uk/O2-Sensor-Spacer-Adapter-Extender/dp/B00CZFCPQU
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