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nodstar
Monza


Joined: 21 May 2014
Posts: 151
Location: Kent UK

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: X51 but no carbon fibre box... Reply with quote

Whilst passing the time on auto trader I came across this car:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201612130563724

It is advertised as having the X51 pack, it does have the intake manifold but the carbon fibre air box is missing. This got me wondering how do you end up with a car that has X51 but no CF airbox Question

1) sold it when times got hard
2) melt it and used it to cover the centre console
3) traded it for the turbo rims
4) maybe it did not fit with that deck lid (current one looks scratched) but would you get rid of the CF box for that?

Marc
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GT4
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to see the VIL

Possibly after-market (the rear fixed wing aero does not have the required snorkel mating gasket either)

Front grilles indicate a willingness to mod

In any case, I doubt it's putting out the full 9 yards, as it is one snorkel down!

 



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Phil 997
Le Mans
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Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15732
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be asking to see a photo of the build spec panel on the car and make sure X51 was one of the build codes and that its not just a modded S The decklid does have the twin intake but the snorkel and CF box are gone thats 2k to replace. which is no big deal if its a genuine build X51 but you need to be very sure. If it was an S with an Aero kit there would only be one air intake so something is off with the car and I as you cannot see why someone would remove the cf X51 airbox Thumb

the decklid looks aftermarket for sure so its unlikely that its a factory fitted aero kit or even an OPC fitted one
Which would make it look toppy for what it is
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tims1959
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Joined: 15 Feb 2009
Posts: 97



PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Marc,
I think it's this car...

http://www.porscheshop.co.uk/bcatalog/porscheshop_porsche_picture_galleries_porsche_project_customers_cars_tom_okelly_porsche_911.php


I met the original owner once at a PCGB track day, very nice fellow.

He had owned the car from new and had specced it with the X51 kit but when I saw the car its airbox had been swapped for a K&N kit (I also distinctly remember that tasteful Sahara Beige interior).

He a lot of modifications done as per the link, including the aerokit and the turbo brakes with 6-pot front calipers.

He called the car 'the Beast', posted about it a bit on the PCGB forum. I think he sold it some years ago and moved on to a new 997.2 Turbo S.

A bit sad to see it's lost its original airbox. Much as I like the idea of melting down to form the centre console (and nifty gear knob), I'd want to add a couple of new options

5) still sitting in first or second owners garage
6) nicked and then sold on by the outfit that did the K&N kit for the original owner

Bandit
 
  
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GT4
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
I would be asking to see a photo of the build spec panel on the car


Just FYI - that is what a VIL is (Vehicle Identification Label)
 
  
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GT4
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tims1959 wrote:
Hi Marc,
I think it's this car...

http://www.porscheshop.co.uk/bcatalog/porscheshop_porsche_picture_galleries_porsche_project_customers_cars_tom_okelly_porsche_911.php


I met the original owner once at a PCGB track day, very nice fellow.

He had owned the car from new and had specced it with the X51 kit but when I saw the car its airbox had been swapped for a K&N kit (I also distinctly remember that tasteful Sahara Beige interior).

He a lot of modifications done as per the link, including the aerokit and the turbo brakes with 6-pot front calipers.

He called the car 'the Beast', posted about it a bit on the PCGB forum. I think he sold it some years ago and moved on to a new 997.2 Turbo S.

A bit sad to see it's lost its original airbox. Much as I like the idea of melting down to form the centre console (and nifty gear knob), I'd want to add a couple of new options

5) still sitting in first or second owners garage
6) nicked and then sold on by the outfit that did the K&N kit for the original owner

Bandit


Ah, so the mod is the aero, not the powerkit.

Shame he seems to have mislaid (sold?) the X51 twin-snorkels.

... especially after mapping it etc and then throttles the intake Duh
 
  
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tims1959
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Joined: 15 Feb 2009
Posts: 97



PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone really cares the history of K&N filter replacing X51 airbox then fitting of aerokit is all here...

http://www.porscheshop.co.uk/bcatalog/porscheshop_porsche_picture_galleries_porsche_project_customers_cars_tom_okelly_porsche_911_stage_2.php

How the subsequent fitting of the non-X51 airbox came about is anyone's guess but it can't be worse than that K&N thing complete with hairnet.

But who cares about these niceties when according to the people selling the car now, it 'comes with' twelve wheels (eight 19" and four 17"):

This car comes with
X51 Power Upgrade, Sports Exhaust, *19in Turbo Wheel*, Bose Sound System, Sports Chrono Package Plus, Cruise Control, Telephone Module For PCM, Auto Dimming Interior/Exterior Mirrors/Rain Sensor, Powerkit Carrera S Package, Short Shifter, PCM Navigation Module, Climate Control, In Car Entertainment (Radio/CD/MP3), Tinted Glass, *Alloy Wheels (17in)*, Upholstery Leather, Alarm, Computer, Electric Windows (Front), *19in Carrera S Alloy Wheels*


Plenty of grip then Grin
 
  
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CarreraMonkey
Watkins Glen


Joined: 02 Sep 2013
Posts: 2017
Location: Silverstone (ish)

2007 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd always want to see the production badge to nake sure it was a genuine x51. Thats the moneyshot..

The carbon fibre airbox is a pretty feature for sure, although not sure how much better it is.
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nodstar
Monza


Joined: 21 May 2014
Posts: 151
Location: Kent UK

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tims1959 wrote:
If anyone really cares the history of K&N filter replacing X51 airbox then fitting of aerokit is all here...

http://www.porscheshop.co.uk/bcatalog/porscheshop_porsche_picture_galleries_porsche_project_customers_cars_tom_okelly_porsche_911_stage_2.php

How the subsequent fitting of the non-X51 airbox came about is anyone's guess but it can't be worse than that K&N thing complete with hairnet.

But who cares about these niceties when according to the people selling the car now, it 'comes with' twelve wheels (eight 19" and four 17"):

This car comes with
X51 Power Upgrade, Sports Exhaust, *19in Turbo Wheel*, Bose Sound System, Sports Chrono Package Plus, Cruise Control, Telephone Module For PCM, Auto Dimming Interior/Exterior Mirrors/Rain Sensor, Powerkit Carrera S Package, Short Shifter, PCM Navigation Module, Climate Control, In Car Entertainment (Radio/CD/MP3), Tinted Glass, *Alloy Wheels (17in)*, Upholstery Leather, Alarm, Computer, Electric Windows (Front), *19in Carrera S Alloy Wheels*


Plenty of grip then Grin


I am impressed, worship not only can you provide photos of the build process but you have also met the previous owner. So it sounds like it is a car that has had a lot of money spent on it but has since had the K&N removed, a non X51 air box added and then given to a dealer that has no idea about the basics. 12 wheels indeed Floor
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J Holmes
Trainee


Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 56



PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The factory build spec won't necessarily confirm it's an X51 car as the power kit was available as a main dealer retrofit. A good way to check is to look underneath at the exhaust manifolds. Ordinary cars are 3 into 1 whereas the X51 cars have collector type manifolds (similar in appearance to the 996 manifolds).

Still, it's a travesty to have ditched that Carbon airbox in favour of a K&N set up. Porsche invested a tot in improving the airflow for that engine to get the extra power, doubt K&N had the same resources. Now running a stock airbox and with a new Carbon one now costing over 3K that car is pretty compromised. Think it would have been better to consider a ducktail spoiler from RPM instead. The one they do for the gen 2 997 has two snorkel intakes so should work much better.
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
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Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would need more than that to confirm.

But we can see from here it has the cast ally intake manifolds and 3rd centre rad.

Which are just as much proof.

However, I think tims1959 has settled it Dont know


For anyone interested in the X51 features, have read here:

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=60293

PS - the MA1 (Gen2) airbox is not compatible with the M97 (Gen1) block.

Interestingly, the Gen2 airbox is so good, it is not changed for the X51 install (although a full-house cost option X51 does include a CF airbox body for your money, the X51-standard GTS foregoes the CF for looks, but there is no functional difference)
 
  
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J Holmes
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Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 56



PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This got me thinking. A new carbon airbox is £2780 plus vat from Porsche as a standalone item (part number 997.110.925.00). But the full gen 1 X51 powerkit is still available - if you already have the sports exhaust then the rest of the kit costs £5228 plus vat (not including fitting). For that you get the heads, manifolds, airbox, inlet manifold, third radiator kit etc etc. But the part number for the carbon airbox in the full kit is slightly different - 997.110.025.00, and against it the price is 'only' £1281 plus vat.
So if you ever find yourself in the position of needing a new carbon airbox it might worth asking your main dealer to try and order the part number of the box from the kit, if successful that's a saving of over 50% on the RRP of the standalone one.

One other thing, according to the brochure Porsche would only retrofit the powerkit to 3.8L cars built after 08/2005. So anything from before that date would not be a pukka X51 car regardless of what the ads might suggest.
 
  
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GT4
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Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

May I quote you on that X51 summary thread?
 
  
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J Holmes
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Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 56



PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course. See the attachments for verification - the text is from the 2007 Tequipment brochure (so 2007 prices) and the screen shot is from the Porsche system (current prices, excluding fitting).
 



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GT4
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great Thumb
 
  
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seeforez
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jan 2016
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Location: up norf


PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when i was looking for my last 997 i was advised that x51 were more prone to engine issues as they run hotter and the additional rad is of little use...is this really the case
if not i am thinking i may start to gather parts to upgrade mine?
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tims1959
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this car hadn't lost its original airbox I think it might have been a potentially good buy (subject to inspection etc).

But an X51 car only works properly with an X51 airbox - the carbon fibre is purely for looks but the MAF sensor housing is bigger than on the standard airbox. So the MAF sensor input to the DME will conflict with the O2 sensor inputs and the engine will run with the wrong air-fuel ratio. And the airflow at high revs will be worse and a bit of power lost, thanks to the missing snorkel as GT4 pointed out.

The K&N kit would've introduced the same issue (not to mention hot air and a restrictive u-bend that belongs on a camper-van toilet). Maybe the car got a remap to compensate, who knows.

From the picture it also looks as if whoever put the 'wrong' airbox on also put on a matching non-X51 oil filler hose (or maybe that was fitted along with the old K&N kit). And I've no idea how they managed to bodge the intake hose (made for 76mm throttle body) over the 82mm throttle body...

J Holmes, agreed on the retrofit but as a prospective buyer I'd want to see an OPC receipt for the retrofit work if X51 wasn't on the VIL. With factory X51 engine numbers, the fifth digit from the right is a 4, whereas retrofits have an 'S' stamped to the right of the last digit.

I don't know the cost of an X51 airbox today but I'd be very wary of extrapolating from a 2007 price. OPC spares prices are reviewed annually and I know firsthand that they can and do rise way above inflation, especially for oddball parts like this. The 997.1 has been discontinued for nine years now so these 997.1 X51 parts are no longer in production.

I suspect the cost of restoring an X51 airbox to that car could be 10% of the asking price of the car.
Used ones don't come up for sale very often but when they do they're hardly a bargain either.
In theory a 997.2 airbox (easily available and a better design than the X51) would fit, but would need some clever one-off intake hose plumbing and a bespoke remap (MAF sensor housing again).

Last edited by tims1959 on Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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tims1959
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tordofm wrote:
I am impressed, worship not only can you provide photos of the build process but you have also met the previous owner. So it sounds like it is a car that has had a lot of money spent on it but has since had the K&N removed, a non X51 air box added and then given to a dealer that has no idea about the basics. 12 wheels indeed Floor


Thanks Marc Smile
This was a good find, well spotted! Hopefully the thread will help 911uk members with some useful info and not just about this particular car.

The odds are that the seller's unaware of the airbox issue (they did run out of fingers on the wheel count!) and that someone will buy this car and drive it around in blissful ignorance of the wrong airbox and other mods not declared in the ad, like the Milltek exhaust (hence the dodgy tailpipes) and the lightweight flywheel - until an OPC or a good indy gets it in for a service.
 
  
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tims1959
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seeforez wrote:
when i was looking for my last 997 i was advised that x51 were more prone to engine issues as they run hotter and the additional rad is of little use...is this really the case?


Hmm I don't think there's any real grounds for that advice. I've not seen or heard of any X51 997.1s failing due to bore scoring or IMS issues.

It's true that the 997.1 X51 kit does nothing to strengthen the bores or the pistons. Mechanically it only changes the intake and exhaust systems to to allow more airflow, including intake and exhaust ports on the cylinder heads, which do also have more durable exhaust valves that can take higher temperatures.

Also true that the X51 kit comes with the third radiator (as already fitted to tipronics) which will keep the engine cooler under heavy loads in hot weather but paradoxically hotter under light loads in cold weather Confused

But by all expert accounts (most notably Hartech) the risk of bore scoring seems to be less about high revs (where the X51 kit actually makes a difference) than about low revs/high torque and maybe also production quality variations in the lokasil material in the cylinder bores.

So while there's no good reason to suggest X51 cars are generally less prone to engine issues I don't think there's any good reason to suggest the opposite, certainly not for a manual as opposed to a tipronic.

Then again there are very few X51 cars about and maybe more of them have rev-happy owners that know to warm them up properly, hence a lower failure rate in practice?

Lastly all the usual preventative measures like LTT have the same effect with X51 cars as standard ones.

seeforez wrote:
if not i am thinking i may start to gather parts to upgrade mine

Not a bad idea but could be a very long term project Smile

Best starting point is X51 exhaust manifolds.

If (big if) you're ok to do without the OPC warranty then you can get close with aftermarket intake parts like a BMC/K&N filter element and Helmholtz resonator delete, 82mm throttle body and plenum, and then 200cpsi cats and a good remap.
I'm sure Phil will agree Laughing

Performance-wise I think a strong-engined non-X51 car will go just as well as an X51 car with a slightly sub-par engine - there isn't a lot in it.

A bit of gratuitous information about the cylinder heads: unlike the 996 X51 kit with its (GT3-like) properly ported/gas-flowed tracts, the 997.1 X51 heads are cast with slightly more open tracts, but otherwise not reworked/ported at all. So the 997.1 X51 cylinder heads probably don't add that much to the package in terms of power increase.

Last edited by tims1959 on Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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GT4
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seeforez wrote:
when i was looking for my last 997 i was advised that x51 were more prone to engine issues as they run hotter and the additional rad is of little use...is this really the case
if not i am thinking i may start to gather parts to upgrade mine?


If anything they run cooler (due to third centre rad)

At any given power (ie constant 70mph), a Carrera 3.8S and a Carrera 3.8S X51 will be producing identical excess (waste) heat, whilst the X51 will have 30% more rad area (cooling).

On a race track, the non-X51 will have boiled dry at the X51's performance envelope.

In any case, fit an LTT to any and all Carrera derivatives.

I've just done mine today!
 
  
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