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LaSource
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:
"All it needs is a new drivers mat"


That quite irked me Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaSource wrote:
Senoj wrote:
"All it needs is a new drivers mat"


That quite irked me Smile



..I can't think why ?
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Porsche News
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

from CoPart https://www.copart.co.uk/lot/27844046?searchId=6551018

Car is a CAT U - Used Unrecorded

There is damage that needed to be repaired but certainly not extensive.

Sensibly repaired and extensively checked, as it has been said 'caveat emptor'

The car should however be priced based on the above, that is the issue.
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Last edited by Porsche News on Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
 



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kingston
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my understanding, track damage is never recorded/classified as a c/d so it in theory, doesnt need to be disclosed
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Fourmotion
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

Just wanted to say that I phoned this garage a week or so ago as I was interested in the car. The car is on sale or return there. The sales manager told me that the car is currently under the ownsership of a lady owner and everything seemed in order until he mentioned the 4 year service gap.... when I asked about this he said it had been in long term storage. I asked him if he could provide any evidence of this with receipts as that's a long time not to have the car serviced even if it hasn't turned a wheel!

He was supposed to phone me back but never did...

Suffice to say, I didn't bother calling back. I'm tempted to ring them back and point this out to and hopefully stop someone getting ripped off!!!!
 
  
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Sam Howell
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fourmotion wrote:
Hi all,

Just wanted to say that I phoned this garage a week or so ago as I was interested in the car. The car is on sale or return there. The sales manager told me that the car is currently under the ownsership of a lady owner and everything seemed in order until he mentioned the 4 year service gap.... when I asked about this he said it had been in long term storage. I asked him if he could provide any evidence of this with receipts as that's a long time not to have the car serviced even if it hasn't turned a wheel!

He was supposed to phone me back but never did...

Suffice to say, I didn't bother calling back. I'm tempted to ring them back and point this out to and hopefully stop someone getting ripped off!!!!


Good Afternoon all,

I am Sam Howell the Marketing Manager at Prestige Cars Kent. I am in charge of completing all advertisements & photos / videos of the vehicles in stock.

Around 15 minutes ago I had been alarmed by this news. The car in the flesh appears in great condition.. Not in a million years would we sell a vehicle with a history like this car has had. Being a petrol head myself I embarrassed to have been fooled by this GT3.

We have been provided with extensive history with the vehicle & we questioned the gap in the mileage. But we had been told the vehicle had been stored. ( This matched up with the MOT's, service history & ownership ). Our sales manager was answering your questions with the paperwork he had in front of him.

As well as all of the above we completed a full HPI check & we thoroughly looked over the vehicle before agreeing to sell the vehicle.

Thank you very much for your phone call; the vehicle has been taken offline with immediate effect.

I can only apologize on behalf of Prestige Cars Kent that we advertised this car without knowing the true track history of the car. I would like to thank you all at 911 UK for pointing this out to us, we thoroughly appreciate the information you have provided us.

Regards,

Sam Howell
 
  
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johntyboy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously when you are buying a car it would be nice to know the entire history of a car.

But with some of these cars getting on for 20 years old, most will have had some paint, maybe some metal work, some maybe a little bump that's been sorted. It seems that folk can be really picky about this sort of stuff. For me it's more about ensuring the car is correct and if it has had some work then the work has been carried out to a high standard.

I have an early car that has been restored. During the restoration we found that the near side front wing had been replaced at some point in its 47 years, and it doesn't keep me awake at night.

The work that was carried out on my 1970 911 shell during the restoration was far more serious and intrusive than the car above. It seems that it's perfectly okay rip apart a shell and repair it as long as it's done correctly, in fact I think it actually adds value to my early car. Now I realise that the restoration on my shell was carried out due to corrosion not accident damage but it's all just metal.

It makes me wonder how old the 996 will need to be before we except that most will have had some metal work......

Here's my shell at its worst.


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NXI20
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johntyboy wrote:
Obviously when you are buying a car it would be nice to know the entire history of a car.

But with some of these cars getting on for 20 years old, most will have had some paint, maybe some metal work, some maybe a little bump that's been sorted. It seems that folk can be really picky about this sort of stuff. For me it's more about ensuring the car is correct and if it has had some work then the work has been carried out to a high standard.

I have an early car that has been restored. During the restoration we found that the near side front wing had been replaced at some point in its 47 years, and it doesn't keep me awake at night.

The work that was carried out on my 1970 911 shell during the restoration was far more serious and intrusive than the car above. It seems that it's perfectly okay rip apart a shell and repair it as long as it's done correctly, in fact I think it actually adds value to my early car. Now I realise that the restoration on my shell was carried out due to corrosion not accident damage but it's all just metal.

It makes me wonder how old the 996 will need to be before we except that most will have had some metal work......


You are completely missing the point: it's not that it's been crashed & repaired, it's that it's being misrepresented as an undamaged original paint & panel car. If the seller had been honest about its history, nobody would have a problem with it. As you say, if the repairs have been well done, there won't be much to worry about although the disclosure will taint the car & it will always command a lower price & be less desirable than if it had been undamaged. The GT3 world is very small & also very well informed about the history of the UK cars. Trying to hide the history of one is foolish in the extreme; sooner or later the truth emerges... By illustration, Disco's old car was written off at the 'ring in 2011 and has now re-emerged from a long hibernation back on the road. We know that car had a twisted chassis which normally means a new shell. You haven't been able to get new shells for about 10 years. Draw your own conclusions about how that one was repaired...

As it stands, we have no idea how it was repaired or who by, although the fact that it is missing the wing endplates points to it being done either on the cheap or by people who don't know what an RS wing looks like; it may be fine, but that's obviously a concern. Who knows what other shortcuts have been taken? Without pictorial / invoice evidence of what the damage was when it went for repair & how it was addressed, it will be up to each potential buyer to get the car inspected & hopefully the inspection will be thorough enough to shed light on the repairs. Even if this is the case, we still have the problem of not knowing how & who carried out said repairs. For instance, was a bent chassis leg jigged straight properly or was it attached to a forklift by a chain & simply pulled straight while the other side was chained to a post? I'm not saying this is what has happened to this car but it is the kind of bodging that can go on; when you are sinking £70K into a car, you'd want to know wouldn't you?

Eventually, someone will come along & buy it at full retail with their heart not their head. They will then be in a world of pain when it's their turn to move it on.

That's the nub of the issue.
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Gareth64
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
johntyboy wrote:
Obviously when you are buying a car it would be nice to know the entire history of a car.

But with some of these cars getting on for 20 years old, most will have had some paint, maybe some metal work, some maybe a little bump that's been sorted. It seems that folk can be really picky about this sort of stuff. For me it's more about ensuring the car is correct and if it has had some work then the work has been carried out to a high standard.

I have an early car that has been restored. During the restoration we found that the near side front wing had been replaced at some point in its 47 years, and it doesn't keep me awake at night.

The work that was carried out on my 1970 911 shell during the restoration was far more serious and intrusive than the car above. It seems that it's perfectly okay rip apart a shell and repair it as long as it's done correctly, in fact I think it actually adds value to my early car. Now I realise that the restoration on my shell was carried out due to corrosion not accident damage but it's all just metal.

It makes me wonder how old the 996 will need to be before we except that most will have had some metal work......


You are completely missing the point: it's not that it's been crashed & repaired, it's that it's being misrepresented as an undamaged original paint & panel car. If the seller had been honest about its history, nobody would have a problem with it. As you say, if the repairs have been well done, there won't be much to worry about although the disclosure will taint the car & it will always command a lower price & be less desirable than if it had been undamaged. The GT3 world is very small & also very well informed about the history of the UK cars. Trying to hide the history of one is foolish in the extreme; sooner or later the truth emerges... By illustration, Disco's old car was written off at the 'ring in 2011 and has now re-emerged from a long hibernation back on the road. We know that car had a twisted chassis which normally means a new shell. You haven't been able to get new shells for about 10 years. Draw your own conclusions about how that one was repaired...

As it stands, we have no idea how it was repaired or who by, although the fact that it is missing the wing endplates points to it being done either on the cheap or by people who don't know what an RS wing looks like; it may be fine, but that's obviously a concern. Who knows what other shortcuts have been taken? Without pictorial / invoice evidence of what the damage was when it went for repair & how it was addressed, it will be up to each potential buyer to get the car inspected & hopefully the inspection will be thorough enough to shed light on the repairs. Even if this is the case, we still have the problem of not knowing how & who carried out said repairs. For instance, was a bent chassis leg jigged straight properly or was it attached to a forklift by a chain & simply pulled straight while the other side was chained to a post? I'm not saying this is what has happened to this car but it is the kind of bodging that can go on; when you are sinking £70K into a car, you'd want to know wouldn't you?

Eventually, someone will come along & buy it at full retail with their heart not their head. They will then be in a world of pain when it's their turn to move it on.

That's the nub of the issue.


Yeah
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Gareth64
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely it goes without saying that often cars of that age have had some work but that car was a complete mess from the pics above and no one would be OK with buying that without knowing what had happened. A 'fender bender' at some point in a car's life is one thing but that's completely different.
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Cheburator
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gareth64 wrote:
Surely it goes without saying that often cars of that age have had some work but that car was a complete mess from the pics above and no one would be OK with buying that without knowing what had happened. A 'fender bender' at some point in a car's life is one thing but that's completely different.


Meh...

The car was not a mess at all... This was a stupidly easy repair, hence the bonkers bidding war that ensued... 90% of this damage is superficial and parts that are clip on...

Someone mentioned that one of the wheels was damaged - yes, indeed it was. A new barrel to suit is available in Germany for EUR250. 2hrs of my time and you would not even know. Rear lights available from numerous sources, similar story with the fronts. Bumpers etc...

The only area of slight concern was the possible chassis bend at the back. Again, nothing that a good Dozer can sort out, moreover, there is a lot experience fixing these cars - it is a mass produced car after all. The measurements are freely available and it is nothing exotic like an Aston Martin/Audi with a bonded architecture for example.

Totally agree with the outrage about hiding its history and trying to pass it as a non-accident car though!
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Gareth64
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheburator wrote:
Gareth64 wrote:
Surely it goes without saying that often cars of that age have had some work but that car was a complete mess from the pics above and no one would be OK with buying that without knowing what had happened. A 'fender bender' at some point in a car's life is one thing but that's completely different.


Meh...

The car was not a mess at all... This was a stupidly easy repair, hence the bonkers bidding war that ensued... 90% of this damage is superficial and parts that are clip on...

Someone mentioned that one of the wheels was damaged - yes, indeed it was. A new barrel to suit is available in Germany for EUR250. 2hrs of my time and you would not even know. Rear lights available from numerous sources, similar story with the fronts. Bumpers etc...

The only area of slight concern was the possible chassis bend at the back. Again, nothing that a good Dozer can sort out, moreover, there is a lot experience fixing these cars - it is a mass produced car after all. The measurements are freely available and it is nothing exotic like an Aston Martin/Audi with a bonded architecture for example.

Totally agree with the outrage about hiding its history and trying to pass it as a non-accident car though!


I do accept that people will have differing opinions on what they think is serious damage and different attitudes to risk when taking a view on buying a car.

Whilst some people would look at it and say 'no problem, we can do A, B and C to it and it'll be fine', I believe that a lot of people, rightly or wrongly, would look at the previous damage and just walk away. It's just what people are comfortable with I guess.
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911UK
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you ever want an example of a crash & repaired car that was sold as mint from an uninsured crash (ie nothing to register on the insurance DB as there was no insurance) then just have a read of this shocking tale

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=45190
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Cheburator
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

911UK wrote:
If you ever want an example of a crash & repaired car that was sold as mint from an uninsured crash (ie nothing to register on the insurance DB as there was no insurance) then just have a read of this shocking tale

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=45190


Well and truly shocking. I seem to remember another GT3, sold by OPC to an unsuspecting client - this time it was a yellow 996.2, which had an interesting past. Luckily the buyer had a slightly more amicable outcome...
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Pip1968
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheburator wrote:

Meh...

The car was not a mess at all... This was a stupidly easy repair, hence the bonkers bidding war that ensued... 90% of this damage is superficial and parts that are clip on...

Someone mentioned that one of the wheels was damaged - yes, indeed it was. A new barrel to suit is available in Germany for EUR250. 2hrs of my time and you would not even know. Rear lights available from numerous sources, similar story with the fronts. Bumpers etc...

The only area of slight concern was the possible chassis bend at the back. Again, nothing that a good Dozer can sort out, moreover, there is a lot experience fixing these cars - it is a mass produced car after all. The measurements are freely available and it is nothing exotic like an Aston Martin/Audi with a bonded architecture for example.

Totally agree with the outrage about hiding its history and trying to pass it as a non-accident car though!


Not having a pop at you but are you not missing the fact that it has not been repaired has it. The spolier is neither a complete Manthey/RS spoiler or the OEM surf board.

Fair play to Sam Howell at Prestige Cars Kent for speaking up although again I am not sure anyone who has experience of Porsche would sell a GT with a broken spoiler. Fair enough if it was something you could not see but something as in your face as that.... wow, just Wow.

SH replacement side plates for a OEM RS spoiler can be had for £1,000 on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150964591619?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Pip
 
  
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mikem7709
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leicester must've had a thing for bumped cars at the time. I almost bought a 6.2 CS in Guards that had a non recorded repair for just over 20K following an off at an Oulton Porsche day. Car was valued at 50K at the time.

I often wonder where that car is now and if the owner knows.
 
  
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Cheburator
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pip1968 wrote:
Cheburator wrote:

Meh...

The car was not a mess at all... This was a stupidly easy repair, hence the bonkers bidding war that ensued... 90% of this damage is superficial and parts that are clip on...

Someone mentioned that one of the wheels was damaged - yes, indeed it was. A new barrel to suit is available in Germany for EUR250. 2hrs of my time and you would not even know. Rear lights available from numerous sources, similar story with the fronts. Bumpers etc...

The only area of slight concern was the possible chassis bend at the back. Again, nothing that a good Dozer can sort out, moreover, there is a lot experience fixing these cars - it is a mass produced car after all. The measurements are freely available and it is nothing exotic like an Aston Martin/Audi with a bonded architecture for example.

Totally agree with the outrage about hiding its history and trying to pass it as a non-accident car though!


Not having a pop at you but are you not missing the fact that it has not been repaired has it. The spolier is neither a complete Manthey/RS spoiler or the OEM surf board.

Fair play to Sam Howell at Prestige Cars Kent for speaking up although again I am not sure anyone who has experience of Porsche would sell a GT with a broken spoiler. Fair enough if it was something you could not see but something as in your face as that.... wow, just Wow.

SH replacement side plates for a OEM RS spoiler can be had for £1,000 on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150964591619?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Pip


For sure, I am not defending whoever did the repair at all... Not finishing off the wing smacks of rank amateurism. The whole thing stinks from any perspective you can think of. For any of us - serious Porsche aficionados- it is bound to prompt questions along the lines nixi posted - was the jigging done with a forklift and lamppost? Or was the crease just filled with flexifiller

My only argument was that people were quick to slag off the car, while it was not that bad at all to start with. A good indy could have put it back to as new condition and I bet you, none of us would have been any wiser, had we not known it before the accident. Ok, if you went down the route of checking production time stamps on lights, bumpers and other fittings, you would of course smell a rat, but let's be honest, how many inspections would tell you that most of these stamps tally-up for example?

Porsche quoted a ludicrous number for the repair cost, but that was based on their own rates and everything being brand new. Years ago, my M3 was declared CAT D because a BMW Paris said that fixing it would cost EUR14k. I ended up buying the car back and having BMW Sofia fix it for EUR6k. The work carried the standard BMW Warranty. 7yrs later, the car is still going strong.

As to this particular car - an inspection should reveal everything. Maybe the work (wing excepted) would be to a high standard and at £60-odd is actually good value for a Mk2?
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Sam Howell
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pip1968 wrote:
Cheburator wrote:

Meh...

The car was not a mess at all... This was a stupidly easy repair, hence the bonkers bidding war that ensued... 90% of this damage is superficial and parts that are clip on...

Someone mentioned that one of the wheels was damaged - yes, indeed it was. A new barrel to suit is available in Germany for EUR250. 2hrs of my time and you would not even know. Rear lights available from numerous sources, similar story with the fronts. Bumpers etc...

The only area of slight concern was the possible chassis bend at the back. Again, nothing that a good Dozer can sort out, moreover, there is a lot experience fixing these cars - it is a mass produced car after all. The measurements are freely available and it is nothing exotic like an Aston Martin/Audi with a bonded architecture for example.

Totally agree with the outrage about hiding its history and trying to pass it as a non-accident car though!


Not having a pop at you but are you not missing the fact that it has not been repaired has it. The spolier is neither a complete Manthey/RS spoiler or the OEM surf board.

Fair play to Sam Howell at Prestige Cars Kent for speaking up although again I am not sure anyone who has experience of Porsche would sell a GT with a broken spoiler. Fair enough if it was something you could not see but something as in your face as that.... wow, just Wow.

SH replacement side plates for a OEM RS spoiler can be had for £1,000 on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150964591619?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Pip


Unfortunately my job is to take the photos and to market the cars in the best way possible. Even if some of the vehicles do have some interesting modifications..

I have good experience with Porsche's and the spoiler on this example has always bugged me; But when the vehicle isn't under our ownership there isn't a huge amount we can do apart from forward our suggestions to the customer.

Dealerships are happy to spend money on their stock if it means it sells quicker. Where as customers aren't always as willing.
 
  
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NLW73
Hockenheim


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 688
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am glad those pics are up now as there was so much hearsay about the damage not being that bad and only panel and paint etc

well we can all see now that is not the case and the whack was heavy and chassis leg damage. so the car is not original, mint , untouched etc.

I can only hope that the future buyers do their research and see this to ensure they do not walk into a car with the wrong expectations.

I did mail the lady seller a few weeks back pointing out the misleading ad and all I got was a load of verbal and told to mind my own business. I tried to point out its a well known car and the ad is wrong.
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996 GT3 mk2 - Guards Red
 
  
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Pip1968
Österreich


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 965
Location: Blighty


PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good for you Nick. Quite a crusader Thumb

Would it be wrong to post her reply here or will we be taking away someone's f' ..ing human rights (usu a one way street as victims do not get them)???

I would love to see it. To be honest with you when you see a car that is clearly not right and then its owner is a woman I always think it is just a cover. She can claim ignorance when the buyer turns up and asks questions and if it wasn't a GT3 she would be taken at face value.

Pip
 
  
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