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RedRob
Trainee


Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 56


1996 Porsche 993 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:32 pm    Post subject: 964 C2 Brakes Reply with quote

I purchased my 964 in September knowing the pads and discs needed replacing but wanted some advice from experienced owners. Do I just replace with standard parts or should I consider upgrading using alternative Porsche parts, something like 964RS brakes! The car will be used mainly for road use and very occasional track use just want to know if standard brakes are good enough in 2016 for fast road use as they are a bit below par currently, any advice greatly appreciated.
 
  
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Chief
Indianapolis


Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 2496
Location: The Middle lands


PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rob,
There is a great deal of information on my thread 'The Red Baron' about brakes and what will fit and where. The only real issue is maybe the single piston rear brakes (Changed on the later cars) not sure what model or year you have.
I can recommend going 993 with the whole set-up, but this WILL get costly.
You need to change calipers front and rear along with discs. Then there's the master cylinder and servo oh and the PV (Brake bias valve) to consider.
Have a read through what I did and see if it either inspires or scares you off the idea Question
All the best,
Chief
_________________
- 964 C2 The Red Baron - 914 2.0 Project Blue Book - Cayman S Sport Edition Amber Alert! -
 
  
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ras62
Montreal


Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 580
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the brakes, calipers and fluid are all in good shape then standard brakes are superb. Super hard pedal, lots of feel and very powerful. Better in many ways than the later cars daft as that might sound.
 
  
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S10lemon
Trainee


Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 76



PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob,

I have a standard set up on my C4 , new disks and pads around when I bought her 4 years ago and they are really very good. the pedal weight feels good (to me) and there's lots of feel. The new parts made a massive difference they they felt very wooden before

They do fade a little if you are really hammering them but not horribly, may be I'm not brave enough to really toast them Smile

A friend has had a big red conversion on his C2 and they are measurably better if you are pushing hard, but it wasn't a simple or cheap conversion and it told a while for him to get the best out of this and a suspension upgrade.

It's all down to taste but I think the standard set up is very decent and funds might be better spent on suspension and a really good set up.

Steve
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AVI_8
Trainee


Joined: 19 Jan 2014
Posts: 74
Location: Prestwick


PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi as chief mentioned above, the C2 has 2 piston calipers on the rear, the C4 as S10lemon has on his post above has 4 pot Brembos on the rear which look identical to the front calipers on the C2 but with smaller pistons.
In my opinion that's the best first step upgrade.
The 44mm pistons on the C2 rear calipers actually have a greater brake force on the pads than the 28/32 pistons on the C4 rear calipers for a given hydraulic pressure, but that's only half the story.
I found that on track the tiny pads combined with the standard C2 calipers cased the pads to overheat causing fade and warped disks.
The rear pads on the C4 rear calipers are much larger (same pads as C2 fronts) so there's more surface area.
If you change to C4 rear calipers you should also change the brake bias proportion valve from the C2's standard 45 to the C4's 55 bar valve.
I think I'm correct in saying that the 944 S2 has the same rear calipers as the C4 964 as has the 928
So it gives you more option when looking for a second hand set.
I got a set of 928 rears from the US from a west coast breaker yard and they came delivered in great condition (no salty roads there) and they didn't cost much.
The next upgrade up from that is to go 964RS or 993 brakes which will require bigger disks and calipers all round and the costs will increase considerably.
With the above C4 upgrade despite "spirited" driving I've not experienced any brake fade on a public road, the brakes are very capable.
Hope this helps
Logan
 
  
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RedRob
Trainee


Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 56


1996 Porsche 993 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:08 pm    Post subject: 964 c2 brakes Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies guys i have been out of the country for a week with ltd access to internet. I have considered upgrading to 964RS brakes but this is expensive and the car will be driven 95% on the road and difficult to justify. I like the sound of the C4 rear brakes but most of the braking is generally via the fronts how much of a day to day difference would upgrading the rears give!
Also considering replacing discs and pads new braided lines and new brake fluid initially, want to keep budget under control as I have the suspension to replace as well, now that's another question KW, Bilstein, Ohlins!!!
 
  
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AVI_8
Trainee


Joined: 19 Jan 2014
Posts: 74
Location: Prestwick


PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This should answer most of your questions regarding brakes

http://www.964uk.com/Documents/Pano%20Brake%20Article%202005.pdf
 
  
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crash7
Monza


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 245



PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Upgraded brakes on C2, picture below. - I went a few extra steps but you can see the difference in caliper size.

To realize the benefit you also need to replace the brake PV valve.
 



964 rear caliper small.JPG
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964 rear caliper small.JPG


  
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paul284pt
Albert Park


Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 1564
Location: North Yorks.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Upgraded brakes on C2, picture below. - I went a few extra steps but you can see the difference in caliper size.

To realize the benefit you also need to replace the brake PV valve.


Bigger pistons require more fluid to make sure they operate correctly when the pads are part worn so that you don't suddenly run out of pad pressure under braking. So as well as the brake bias valve it is prudent to upgrade the master cylinder to provide the extra fluid when it's needed.

If anyone's tempted to upgrade the rear callipers/discs as well you may need to upgrade the brake booster too, and that presents further problems as there's not a lot of room (but can be done with modification), eh Chief ? Grin

There's full info on what is required to go the "whole hog" here on my thread which I did with help from the esteemed fountain of all brake knowledge Bill Verburg, Ras62 and others.

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=82941&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=200

Good luck,
Paul
_________________
1980-4 924 Turbo with mods. (ex Tony Dron - 12th at Le Mans 1980 with works 924 Carrera Turbo).
1984-9 911 SC (1982)
1989-93 911 Carrera Sport (1989)
2010- 964 Carrera 2 (1990) Redtek 3.8RSR
2012-14 Porsche Cayenne (2012)
2015-17 Porsche Cayenne Diesel S (2015)
2017- Macan Turbo Performance Package
 
  
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AVI_8
Trainee


Joined: 19 Jan 2014
Posts: 74
Location: Prestwick


PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul
As the brake pads wear the fluid level will drop, as long as the fluid level is kept topped up to a sensible level there will be no problem with a lack of fluid as the brakes wear if only the rear calipers are upgraded to C4 items
It's my understanding that you need to have increased your brake capacity by a significant amount eg. 993 RS or big reds/blacks at the front and 993 rears
In that case a larger MC would be more than sensible
 
  
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paul284pt
Albert Park


Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 1564
Location: North Yorks.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi AVI_8,

You're quite correct and I should have been more specific, I was thinking when Big Reds have been fitted which is often what people look at upgrading to.

Cheers,
Paul
_________________
1980-4 924 Turbo with mods. (ex Tony Dron - 12th at Le Mans 1980 with works 924 Carrera Turbo).
1984-9 911 SC (1982)
1989-93 911 Carrera Sport (1989)
2010- 964 Carrera 2 (1990) Redtek 3.8RSR
2012-14 Porsche Cayenne (2012)
2015-17 Porsche Cayenne Diesel S (2015)
2017- Macan Turbo Performance Package
 
  
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badlands
Nürburgring


Joined: 05 Feb 2015
Posts: 448
Location: London


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the (standard) brake feel & effectiveness on my ex 964 C4 felt a fair bit superior to that on current 993 C2. both had relatively new pads & discs. could be a nice upgrade route
_________________
current: 993 carrera coupe, manual, iris blue
ex 964 c4
ex 993 carrera cab
 
  
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ras62
Montreal


Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 580
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

964/993 C2 cars use a vacuum system while C4 cars use a pressurised system, this will probably account for the difference in feel.
Big reds and 993 rears is a common upgrade but the difference in fluid volume is very small, essentially the volume difference due to piston size increases (40 vs 44 on the front and 28 vs 34 on the rear over full brake pad wear of say 8mm).The second piston is the same size on both calipers.
The master cylinder although larger simply makes the brake ratio slightly higher meaning less pedal effort for the same brake pressure at the disc, the extra volume needed still has to come from the original reservoir no matter what master cylinder is used.
 
  
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