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Bigfra
Monza


Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 160



PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:45 pm    Post subject: Gen 1 997 GT3 wants more power Reply with quote

As title chaps, fancied the parr 3.9 conversion but 450 bhp doesn't sound much if I'm honest. Any other options besides sending the engine to the states ?
 
  
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IMI A
Österreich


Joined: 02 Aug 2014
Posts: 997
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speak to Ken ay 9e. I'd be asking for a 4.0 or 4.2 litre 500bhp revving out to 8500 rpm Very Happy

Black Friday tomorrow so a good day to have chat to him Wink
 
  
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NLW73
Imola


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 840
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

supercharge it. go on!!
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g7jhp
Trainee


Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 95
Location: Herts


PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big step. If you have to have n/a engine and it's a keeper then that's one route.

Downsides are it'll be expensive, won't add value to the car and would make it harder to sell being more niche than a standard GT3.

You could always sell the GT3 and get a GT2 or turbo.
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Cunno
Watkins Glen


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 2171
Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Gen 1 997 GT3 wants more power Reply with quote

Bigfra wrote:
As title chaps, fancied the parr 3.9 conversion but 450 bhp doesn't sound much if I'm honest. Any other options besides sending the engine to the states ?


Yes, as these engines are maxed out the only real way to improve performance is to open up and increase capacity if you want to keep NA. You then need to decide whether you want to use Porsche parts or install after market bits. Porsche parts will let you get to 4.0, but I've read about conversions of 4.25 in the states using after market parts.

Personally I decided to stick to Porsche bits 3.8 conversion with modded cup cams, made 475bhp and 350 ft lb torque on the rollers. Go talk to o Fearnsport.
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Bigfra
Monza


Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 160



PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks lads, Defoe want to keep the car na. I'll call around and see what people think
 
  
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Rossi911
Suzuka


Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 1183
Location: England

2011 Porsche 991 Carrera

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: Gen 1 997 GT3 wants more power Reply with quote

Bigfra wrote:
As title chaps, fancied the parr 3.9 conversion but 450 bhp doesn't sound much if I'm honest. Any other options besides sending the engine to the states ?


Or make it lighter ?
Add ceramic brakes, lighter wheels, lighter exhaust, lighter interior, other RS lightness touches

makes a difference
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NXI20
Approved Trader


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3228
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Power figures sell cars, torque wins races.

Bore and stroke on the 3.6-litre engine is 100mm x 76.4mm; on the 3.8 they changed it to 102.7mm x 76.4mm. On the 4.0, they kept the same piston size of 102.7mm and increased the stroke by 4mm to 80.4mm

According to Andreas Preuninger, Porsche motorsport manager for high-performance cars: "We have finally really reached the bore limit with this engine. This is the maximum before we need to create a new engine blueprint." Wall thickness between bores is in fact so thin now that steel cylinder liners have been added for durability as with the GT3 RSR racecars.

In my experience of doing a 3.9 conversion (using 104mm pistons) but retaining the standard crank & rods, going over the 102.7mm bore of the 3.8 results in the piston flopping around inside the cylinder because they have to allow for the piston to expand and the cylinder expands much less than the piston; the greater the diameter, the more the piston expands when hot and this larger cold clearance increases wear. Not to mention sounding like a bag of nails until fully up to temperature. I don't have that engine any more due to piston / ring failure after 42K miles. There's a reason that Porsche don't use a larger piston & chose a longer stroke for the 4.0 ...

AFAIK, nobody has made a N/A Mezger engine of over 4.0 produce reliable big power for hundreds of hours on a track. Claims of 50K miles on the road in big bore cars are out there but that's not really stressing the engine. Just because it's possible doesn't automatically mean it's a good idea...
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2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
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nick w
Zolder


Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 5161
Location: Kent

2010 Porsche 997 GT3 RS

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
Power figures sell cars, torque wins races.

Bore and stroke on the 3.6-litre engine is 100mm x 76.4mm; on the 3.8 they changed it to 102.7mm x 76.4mm. On the 4.0, they kept the same piston size of 102.7mm and increased the stroke by 4mm to 80.4mm

According to Andreas Preuninger, Porsche motorsport manager for high-performance cars: "We have finally really reached the bore limit with this engine. This is the maximum before we need to create a new engine blueprint." Wall thickness between bores is in fact so thin now that steel cylinder liners have been added for durability as with the GT3 RSR racecars.

In my experience of doing a 3.9 conversion (using 104mm pistons) but retaining the standard crank & rods, going over the 102.7mm bore of the 3.8 results in the piston flopping around inside the cylinder because they have to allow for the piston to expand and the cylinder expands much less than the piston; the greater the diameter, the more the piston expands when hot and this larger cold clearance increases wear. Not to mention sounding like a bag of nails until fully up to temperature. I don't have that engine any more due to piston / ring failure after 42K miles. There's a reason that Porsche don't use a larger piston & chose a longer stroke for the 4.0 ...

AFAIK, nobody has made a N/A Mezger engine of over 4.0 produce reliable big power for hundreds of hours on a track. Claims of 50K miles on the road in big bore cars are out there but that's not really stressing the engine. Just because it's possible doesn't automatically mean it's a good idea...


Nice concise summary...and anyone out there thinking of investing in a 3.9
conversion i'd take real heed. If you're in need of more power for your 997,
your best bet is find yourself a nice gen 2 car, that has a useful edge of extra
bhp and a better and slightly fuller torque curve.

The other remedy.....a 997 RS 4.0...maybe not !. Rolling Eyes
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NLW73
Imola


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 840
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nick is the man to know as he has tried different route and really used the car to extreme. would always vouch n trust what he says.

what about taking out some weight from the car? far cheaper than doing the engine conversions.

change the rear glass to polycarb and maybe side windows? will increase the sound effect of the mezger too Wink

Carbon rear spoiler and carbon bonnet.

you could go for much lighter wheels as the OEM wheels are very heavy.

you could easily save 50KGs with that set. maybe RS flywheel to rev quicker and maybe lightened pulleys too.

not just about power....look at what ELA done with his std 996......3.4 engine with nearly 200 KGs out of it. has oem GT3 power to weight ratios.
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Roro
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 6116



PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nick w wrote:
Nice concise summary...and anyone out there thinking of investing in a 3.9
conversion i'd take real heed. If you're in need of more power for your 997,
your best bet is find yourself a nice gen 2 car, that has a useful edge of extra
bhp and a better and slightly fuller torque curve.

The other remedy.....a 997 RS 4.0...maybe not !. Rolling Eyes


I thought Gen 2 cars were around £40k more than Gen 1, until I had a look on the OPC network this morning. The price gap between 7.1 and 7.2 997's seems to be closing, based on the current stock anyway. There's a 997.1 GT3 for £84k, 997.1 GT3 Clubsport for £90k, and a 997.2 GT3 for £99,950

Previously I would have said go for a 3.9 rebuild (I like the idea of modding, plus more power than a Gen 2 3.8, and around £20/25k ballpark so relatively cost effective), but now I'd consider looking at a gen 2, which previously wouldn't have been an option

Creating a GT3 outlaw type thing by throwing out weight also sounds like a good option... combine that with a 3.9 and you'd have a monster Grin
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tonymac3
Newbie


Joined: 18 Jun 2016
Posts: 2
Location: London


PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about this conversion for FVD

997 GT3 / RS 3.6L ( to 4,1L ) Level 3 (485HP/354TQ)
FVD 997 100 83B

8.995 €
Add to cart
SRP: 9.748 €
11.600,12 €
FVD 997 GT3 4.1 Level 3 Kit

- Max. Power - 485 HP (357 kW) @ 8100 rpm
- Max. Torque - 354 lb ft (480 Nm) @ 5650 rpm
- Max. Speed - 198 mph (320 kph)
- Max. RPM - 8600 rpm
- Acceleration 0-100 kph (0-62 mph)* - 3.7s

* Based on German tests done with kph. 100 kph = 62.137 mph

The FVD conversion kit includes:

MAHLE Piston & Cylinder set 4.1 L (106mm), 997.1 & 997.2 GT3/RS x 1
FVD Software upgrade for 3.6 L to 4.1L with My Genius Flash tool x 1
BMC sport air filter for 997.1 GT3 x 1
Intake manifold 4.0 L x 1
Engine gasket set 997 GT3 x 1
Cylinder head gaskets for 4.1 L FVD conversion x 2
Cylinder base gasket for 4.1 L FVD conversion x 2
Intermediate shaft bearings x 2
Intermediate shaft thrust bearings x 2
Connecting rod bearing shell x 12
Spark plug GT3 x 6
Crankshaft pulley washer 997.1 GT3 x1
O-ring for thermostat housing x 1
Pan head screw x 2
Hexagon head bolts x 2
Washers x 2
Screw x 2
O-rings for actuators (small) x 2
O-rings for actuators (large) x 2
O-ring for oil tube x 1
Gaskets for exhaust manifold x 2

Further additional parts/work required:
- Connection rods (22mm pin) FVD10397520
- Modification of the customer's original water housing - 2 Qty.Needed (Right and Left) FVD10303905WKA
- Modification of the customer's original crankcase FVD10303905MG
- Modification of the customer's original crankcase to 2 oil jets (or purchase 3.8 crankcase)
We recommend the use of an M&M Exhaust System BES99701260S with 200 sport catalytic.

The labor for the engine conversion is approximately 65 hours.

TÜV-Approval is only possible for vehicles converted by us and equipped with a valved exhaust system.

TonyMac.
 
  
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Bigfra
Monza


Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 160



PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tonymac3 wrote:
How about this conversion for FVD

997 GT3 / RS 3.6L ( to 4,1L ) Level 3 (485HP/354TQ)
FVD 997 100 83B

8.995 €
Add to cart
SRP: 9.748 €
11.600,12 €
FVD 997 GT3 4.1 Level 3 Kit

- Max. Power - 485 HP (357 kW) @ 8100 rpm
- Max. Torque - 354 lb ft (480 Nm) @ 5650 rpm
- Max. Speed - 198 mph (320 kph)
- Max. RPM - 8600 rpm
- Acceleration 0-100 kph (0-62 mph)* - 3.7s

* Based on German tests done with kph. 100 kph = 62.137 mph

The FVD conversion kit includes:

MAHLE Piston & Cylinder set 4.1 L (106mm), 997.1 & 997.2 GT3/RS x 1
FVD Software upgrade for 3.6 L to 4.1L with My Genius Flash tool x 1
BMC sport air filter for 997.1 GT3 x 1
Intake manifold 4.0 L x 1
Engine gasket set 997 GT3 x 1
Cylinder head gaskets for 4.1 L FVD conversion x 2
Cylinder base gasket for 4.1 L FVD conversion x 2
Intermediate shaft bearings x 2
Intermediate shaft thrust bearings x 2
Connecting rod bearing shell x 12
Spark plug GT3 x 6
Crankshaft pulley washer 997.1 GT3 x1
O-ring for thermostat housing x 1
Pan head screw x 2
Hexagon head bolts x 2
Washers x 2
Screw x 2
O-rings for actuators (small) x 2
O-rings for actuators (large) x 2
O-ring for oil tube x 1
Gaskets for exhaust manifold x 2

Further additional parts/work required:
- Connection rods (22mm pin) FVD10397520
- Modification of the customer's original water housing - 2 Qty.Needed (Right and Left) FVD10303905WKA
- Modification of the customer's original crankcase FVD10303905MG
- Modification of the customer's original crankcase to 2 oil jets (or purchase 3.8 crankcase)
We recommend the use of an M&M Exhaust System BES99701260S with 200 sport catalytic.

The labor for the engine conversion is approximately 65 hours.

TÜV-Approval is only possible for vehicles converted by us and equipped with a valved exhaust system.

TonyMac.


I would be concerned about reliability with this. Been speaking to Matt at Fear sport after Nick's advice so let's see what happens over the next few months. A gen 2 car would be ideal as well but no CS spec cars about at the moment
 
  
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NXI20
Approved Trader


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3228
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigfra wrote:
tonymac3 wrote:
How about this conversion for FVD

997 GT3 / RS 3.6L ( to 4,1L ) Level 3 (485HP/354TQ)
FVD 997 100 83B

8.995 €
Add to cart
SRP: 9.748 €
11.600,12 €
FVD 997 GT3 4.1 Level 3 Kit

- Max. Power - 485 HP (357 kW) @ 8100 rpm
- Max. Torque - 354 lb ft (480 Nm) @ 5650 rpm
- Max. Speed - 198 mph (320 kph)
- Max. RPM - 8600 rpm
- Acceleration 0-100 kph (0-62 mph)* - 3.7s

* Based on German tests done with kph. 100 kph = 62.137 mph

The FVD conversion kit includes:

MAHLE Piston & Cylinder set 4.1 L (106mm), 997.1 & 997.2 GT3/RS x 1
FVD Software upgrade for 3.6 L to 4.1L with My Genius Flash tool x 1
BMC sport air filter for 997.1 GT3 x 1
Intake manifold 4.0 L x 1
Engine gasket set 997 GT3 x 1
Cylinder head gaskets for 4.1 L FVD conversion x 2
Cylinder base gasket for 4.1 L FVD conversion x 2
Intermediate shaft bearings x 2
Intermediate shaft thrust bearings x 2
Connecting rod bearing shell x 12
Spark plug GT3 x 6
Crankshaft pulley washer 997.1 GT3 x1
O-ring for thermostat housing x 1
Pan head screw x 2
Hexagon head bolts x 2
Washers x 2
Screw x 2
O-rings for actuators (small) x 2
O-rings for actuators (large) x 2
O-ring for oil tube x 1
Gaskets for exhaust manifold x 2

Further additional parts/work required:
- Connection rods (22mm pin) FVD10397520
- Modification of the customer's original water housing - 2 Qty.Needed (Right and Left) FVD10303905WKA
- Modification of the customer's original crankcase FVD10303905MG
- Modification of the customer's original crankcase to 2 oil jets (or purchase 3.8 crankcase)
We recommend the use of an M&M Exhaust System BES99701260S with 200 sport catalytic.

The labor for the engine conversion is approximately 65 hours.

TÜV-Approval is only possible for vehicles converted by us and equipped with a valved exhaust system.

TonyMac.


I would be concerned about reliability with this. Been speaking to Matt at Fear sport after Nick's advice so let's see what happens over the next few months. A gen 2 car would be ideal as well but no CS spec cars about at the moment


I love that FVD list. The headline price seems very attractive until you factor in the need for new rods at €1K each, the machining of your crankcases & water jackets + the 65 hours of labour. Oh, and a new exhaust. Plus all the "while you're in there" bits such as chains & tensioners, cam buckets, springs, etc. etc. Then it becomes at least 3 times as much Floor
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Need Alcon discs or Pagid pads? https://uber9s.com

2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
1995 993 GT2 recreation in Polar Silver
2010 GT3 CS in Riviera Blue Smile
1978 Carrera SC Barn Find in Red (restoration project)
 
  
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RXBoxster
Monza


Joined: 31 Jul 2015
Posts: 186
Location: Preston - Lancashire


PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and then a remap too Very Happy ha ha
 
  
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NXI20
Approved Trader


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3228
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RXBoxster wrote:
and then a remap too Very Happy ha ha


No, they generously include that Wink

Quote:
FVD Software upgrade for 3.6 L to 4.1L with My Genius Flash tool x 1

_________________
Nick
Need Alcon discs or Pagid pads? https://uber9s.com

2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
1995 993 GT2 recreation in Polar Silver
2010 GT3 CS in Riviera Blue Smile
1978 Carrera SC Barn Find in Red (restoration project)
 
  
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Stuart
General
General


Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 5026
Location: Waterworld

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
RXBoxster wrote:
and then a remap too Very Happy ha ha


No, they generously include that Wink

Quote:
FVD Software upgrade for 3.6 L to 4.1L with My Genius Flash tool x 1


Which having used that software tool I'd avoid at all costs...
 
  
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RXBoxster
Monza


Joined: 31 Jul 2015
Posts: 186
Location: Preston - Lancashire


PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

how can you map a car properly without having the engine running in front of you? lol
 
  
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