Welcome to 911UK
The only place for Porsche, 911uk is the definitive enthusiast and resource site for the Porsche 911.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so join up today for full access to the site and benefit from latest member offers.

Porsche Classifieds
Sell Your Porsche on 911uk
Create a Free Classified Advert
Search Ads
Classified Adverts FAQ
Trade Classified Information
Buyer & Seller Fraud Protection
Consumer Rights Act
Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI)
Porsche Car Sourcing
Porsche Cars Wanted
Official Porsche Centre Reviews
Model
Stock
Porsche 911
991 : 2011- 21
997 : 2004- 71
996 : 1997-2005 36
993 : 1993-1998 2
964 : 1989-1993 3
Carrera 3.2 : 1983-1989 2
Carrera SC : 1977-1983 1
930 Turbo : 1975-1989 0
Early 911 : 1964-1977 0
Porsche Other Models
Classic : 1950-1965 0
Boxster : 1997- 25
Cayman : 2005- 13
Cayenne : 2003- 2
Macan : 2014- 2
Panamera : 2009- 2
912-914-924-928-944-968 2
959 - CarreraGT - RaceCar 0
Car Parts For Sale & Wanted
Other Items For Sale & Wanted
Wheels Tyres For Sale & Wanted
Number Plates For Sale Wanted

Porsche Services
Porsche Body Shop Repair
Paint Protection & Wrapping
Porsche Classic Insurance
Porsche Classic Parts
Porsche Classic Restoration
Porsche Design Collection
Porsche Engine Gearbox Rebuild
Porsche Heritage & History
Porsche News
Porsche Picture Gallery
Win a New Porsche 911

Porsche Parts
Body Parts, Body Styling
Brakes, Clearance
Electrical, Exhausts
Engine Cooling, Engine Electrical
Engine Rebuild, Heating Cooling
Interior Incar, Lighting
Rubber Seals, Service Parts
Steering, Suspension
Transmission, Workshop Tools
Early 911, 911 - 930, 928 - 968
964 - 993, 996 - 997, Boxster
Cayman, Cayenne, Panamera

Porsche Model Range
911 [991] 2011-Current
Porsche 911 [991]
911 [997] 2004-Current
Porsche 911 [997]
911 [GT] GT1-GT2-GT3
Porsche 911 [GT]
911 [996] 1997-2005
Porsche 911 [996]
911 [993] 1993-1998
Porsche 911 [993]
911 [RS] RS-RSR
Porsche 911 [RS]
911 [964] 1989-1993
Porsche 911 [964]
911 3.2 1983-1989
Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera
911 SC 1977-1983
Porsche 911 SC
911 [Early] 1964-1977
Porsche 911 [Early]
Boxster & Cayman
Porsche Boxster & Cayman
Cayenne & Panamera
Porsche Cayenne & Panamera

911uk Site Partners

Post new topic   Reply to topic
Author Message
Griffter
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 325



PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP, what a nightmare. You have my every sympathy.

I hope the outcome is satisfactory.

As an aside, the 6 months thing has always puzzled me. What's the point of a 3 month warranty (which more often than not is more exclusions than cover)?
I once asked a dealer this as he proudly explained the terms of the complimentary warranty and invited me to upgrade to 6 months. He just looked at me blankly!
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Ursa911
Imola


Joined: 17 Feb 2016
Posts: 763
Location: Farningham, Kent


PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can i ask, and i'll admit i haven't read the 4 pages, is this the result of IMS bearing or something else?
_________________
"If you see the tree you are driving in to, you have under steered. If you only hear it, you have over steered." - Walter Röhrl

2004 996.2 Manual C4S Cab Arctic Silver - Ursa911
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30178
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The IMS looks perfect (except the externally applied crush damage to the shaft)

Cause would appear to be a rebuild error (which includes simply rebuilding with an imbalance between new and old parts/inappropriate reuse of old parts, as well as assembly error)

By the look of it, a piston or con rod has disconnected (through disassembly or fissure)
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
scarletboarder
Silverstone


Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 123
Location: Swansea


PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Video of right side showing cylinders 4,5 and 6.

https://youtu.be/kIKkALoqrsQ

Engine requires full bottom end. This will be at my cost. Who would have these parts or can rebuild it with supply of parts? At what cost? Who may have full engines? Thanks, Phil. Sad
_________________
997.1 Carrera S
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Avon
Trainee


Joined: 12 Mar 2016
Posts: 79



PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT4 wrote:
....The IMS looks perfect (except the externally applied crush damage to the shaft)....


Keep the IMS and replace the engine. Someone has to be the first to do this!



...just trying to lighten the mood...
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Ursa911
Imola


Joined: 17 Feb 2016
Posts: 763
Location: Farningham, Kent


PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT4 wrote:
The IMS looks perfect (except the externally applied crush damage to the shaft)

Cause would appear to be a rebuild error (which includes simply rebuilding with an imbalance between new and old parts/inappropriate reuse of old parts, as well as assembly error)

By the look of it, a piston or con rod has disconnected (through disassembly or fissure)


Cheers GT4, reading the four or more engine failures in the last week i'm getting a little twitchy especially as my 996 c4s has done 110k+ miles. The IMS issue has never really worried me before especially as my Indie says its a limited to a small percentage and made worse by forum horror stories etc etc....but you can't help but wonder. I dont fancy an £8k rebuild and now thinking i might follow go down the IMS Solution route.

Seeing the pics, hearing so many stories this week of IMS & Bore Score problems is a bit of a stark reality these things are potentially a ticking timebomb or game of russian roulette.

OP - sorry for your loss mate
_________________
"If you see the tree you are driving in to, you have under steered. If you only hear it, you have over steered." - Walter Röhrl

2004 996.2 Manual C4S Cab Arctic Silver - Ursa911
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30178
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avon wrote:
GT4 wrote:
....The IMS looks perfect (except the externally applied crush damage to the shaft)....


Keep the IMS and replace the engine. Someone has to be the first to do this!



...just trying to lighten the mood...



what
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
nigel99
Barcelona


Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 1313
Location: Berkshire

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scarletboarder wrote:
Looking at the consumer rights summary despite the vehicle being sold with a 3 month warranty I'm assuming I have some recourse referencing this part;

"During the expected lifespan of your product you're entitled to the following:UP TO 6 MONTHS - If it can’t be repaired or replaced, then you're entitled to a full refund in most cases."

I did not pay any part of the vehicle cost on a credit card. The repairer have already taken the engine out which they did not ask me about before actioning!!

Dealer owner has not rang me back yet despite leaving messages with other staff there.


My understanding is exactly what is quoted. Keep calling and go there if needed. Dont forget to mention that you're seeking legal advice.
_________________
Current: 997.2 C2S, Audi TTS mk3
Previous: Cayman 987.1, Audi TT mk1 , BMW e46
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7108
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The key surely is in "expected lifespan of your product"... taking into account age, make and mileage of a 12+ yr old performance car. No doubt this could be exploited by the defence lawyer.

No doubt the engine builder is being a bit cagey because it will be up to the dealer to prove the fault was not there at the point of sale. If it was, then obviously liability will then pass to the engineers.

The wider question for the lawyers in the room... given the faults with the M96/97 engines are well documented to exist at the point of sale, do owners have any recourse to Porsche GB under CGA?
_________________
"911- the guilt-free supercar"

Current: 2003 C4S Coupe, seal/black

Ex: '02 C4S Coupe, '96 993 Targa, '88 Carrera Sport Coupe
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
   
Jacoda434
Newbie


Joined: 27 Apr 2016
Posts: 43



PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember when this happened to my Alpina and ended up with the largest repair bill BMW have ever had over £34k and went down to just a catastrophic failure, not that this helps you, I have also a pall who like you only had the car short period and ended up with a £14k engine rebuild from Hartech, this would be any owners nightmare

in fairness to the £14k Hartech rebuild it has transformed the way the car drives

don't know any words that can help but we all feel for you
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
maldren
Suzuka


Joined: 07 Oct 2016
Posts: 1099



PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
The key surely is in "expected lifespan of your product"... taking into account age, make and mileage of a 12+ yr old performance car. No doubt this could be exploited by the defence lawyer.

No doubt the engine builder is being a bit cagey because it will be up to the dealer to prove the fault was not there at the point of sale. If it was, then obviously liability will then pass to the engineers.

The wider question for the lawyers in the room... given the faults with the M96/97 engines are well documented to exist at the point of sale, do owners have any recourse to Porsche GB under CGA?


I suspect there may be problem with a CGA against Porsche in that we are not the first owners and didn't buy the cars from them. Also, the cars are now old and Porsche may argue they have reached their normal end of life.

Great idea though and any help from Porsche would be very welcome.
_________________
Mike
2003 996.2 C2 Coupe Arctic Silver
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
scarletboarder
Silverstone


Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 123
Location: Swansea


PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in Stuttgart at the factory next Tuesday so will be taking along images etc just to see what they think.
Popping to the dealers with images in the morning. Not expecting a hearty welcome.
_________________
997.1 Carrera S
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
CFo
Monza


Joined: 02 Feb 2016
Posts: 225
Location: Totteridge, London


PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scarletboarder wrote:

Popping to the dealers with images in the morning. Not expecting a hearty welcome.


I still think you should be looking at some legal advice regarding their responsibility.
_________________
Chris
2009 987.2 Boxster manual
ex 1998 996 Carrera Tiptronic
ex Audi TT cab 2.0 Tfsi DSG
ex Jag XK8
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
   
maldren
Suzuka


Joined: 07 Oct 2016
Posts: 1099



PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be very good if they restarted their offer of discounted replacement engines, that shouldn't cost them too much as I'm sure they make a healthy profit on them.

Of course they may not find it easy to produce volumes of 3.4/3.6 engines now but 997 spec short motors at a sensible price would be very welcome!
_________________
Mike
2003 996.2 C2 Coupe Arctic Silver
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8255
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scarletboarder wrote:
Video of right side showing cylinders 4,5 and 6.

https://youtu.be/kIKkALoqrsQ

Engine requires full bottom end. This will be at my cost. Who would have these parts or can rebuild it with supply of parts? At what cost? Who may have full engines? Thanks, Phil. Sad


Looks like the (steel) liners didn't slip then and I can only think the circlips haven't gone in correctly for the gudgeon pins as the pin seems to have slipped to the right causing trauma to the next bore (on the right) and then the rod has broken free, it is such a fiddly job to get right (I was terrified the first time I did one) as you assemble them from a 1 inch hole feeding them in blind from outside the end of the engine casing.

Why at your cost??
_________________
http://euroroadtripper.blogspot.co.uk/

 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6762
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitting the clip to a gudeon pin .. An audible click should be heard to confirm the clip is in place .. wtf .. thats the instructions .. how do you know its in place .. if it goes for over 50 miles without letting go then its ok !!

Ive tryed mirrors and all sorts to confirm it .. hate engine rebuilds .. sigh

Sorry .. a little rant .. some instructions are kinda a waste .

Con rod appears to have ripped out of the piston .. small end failure .. cant say why though .. not sure about a clip failure to locate but ive not seen this before so i dont know .. building error or as GT4 says a mix of old and new components .. no idear im afraid .

Just my 2 pennys worth to a sad post .

I am sorry that it has happened though .. i wouldnt wish this on anyone Sad
_________________
.

My Daughter's Crowdfunding has hit the target see Here

Thank you all so Very much .

Mechanic

7pm - 9pm

Now At An Indy.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8255
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort wrote:
Ive tryed mirrors and all sorts to confirm it .. hate engine rebuilds


This is my favorite bit of an M96 rebuild, it's like playing operation or Russian Roulette.

I use a long mirror and quadruple check before passing it as done and I've never had an issue so far, you really have to make sure the end of the clip where it is bent sits in the little notch in the piston, if it doesn't most of the circlip could stay in place for a little while in it before it actually slips and the gudgeon starts to slide out and catch the bottom of the bore, then all hell breaks loose. I'm sure this is what has happened here as the gudgeon has been torn through the soft metal of the piston the same side as the bores are knackered.

This is how much you can see with the inspection mirror from one of my rebuilds, not a lot.


_________________
http://euroroadtripper.blogspot.co.uk/

 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris I'm 100% with what you have said having looked at the video which shows the liners for 4-5-6 haven't budged (even after all this trauma). This has to be a circlip issue and a wayward gudgeon that's caused an instant jam.

If the rod had simply broken through use and fatigue the section making up the little end would still be intact and attached to the piston and the damage would also be localised to that cylinder.

Dreadful, my fingers crossed that the specialists involved can work something out for you.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
MNC911
Österreich


Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 989
Location: Prestbury


PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scarletboarder wrote:
Thanks for the comments. I bought the car from a dealer. The engine was rebuilt on 24/11/15, details below. It has done approximately 4000 miles since with about 2k during my ownership. I've run it on 2 500+ mile trips and had an oil service on it as soon as I took ownership back at the rebuild garage for them to check everything was ok.
At the time I was accelerating up past 60 miles an hour at about 4500 rpm. Oil seemed to be coming from the left side of the engine underneath. No strange noises or issues prior to this.



Thanks, Phil W


Just read this thread, it's bad luck, but the good news is the law is on your side as of 1st October 2015 in the form of used car sales and the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Get the vehicle data memory printed out to show you've not thrashed the living daylights out of it & you're 80% there to give it back to the dealer.

Which or Auto-Trader or .GOV or a phone call to the Free Citizens Advice Number will have lots of very informative direction of the new law passed in 2015.

It hopefully will come to your rescue Thumb

All the best Thumb
_________________
History:
'10 911 Cab
'13 Cayman
'02 Boxster
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
poppopbangbang
Nürburgring


Joined: 25 May 2015
Posts: 480



PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be very confident that is a wrist pin retaining failure on the induction or more likely compression stroke.

The tell is there is one little end boss on the piston still mostly complete and one ripped to pieces with the piston inverted in the bore. The failure mode with the pin walking is it eventually binds on the bore on the end it is walking out of the rod/little end boss at and imparts a pivoting force into the little end boss on that end - essentially the crank is not going to stop so the rod is loaded in tension with the wrist pin now off centre in the little end bores and one end of the pin bound against the bore resulting in catastrophic failure of the little end boss on the opposite side of the piston. At this point the wrist pin is usually partially pulled back from the side of the bore it has bound on and walks the other way pulling the pin from the remaining little end bore and quite often flipping the piston over in the bore as it does so and smashing the skirt/bore etc.

Failure on the compression or exhaust stroke is more rare and generally shows as massive damage to the piston crown as well as the skirt and little end boss or a totally shattered piston where the little end and the pin has made it around once more and hit what is left of the piston on the way back up.

Sometimes in engines without centre support of the liner the liner fails first and allows the piston to carry on for half a cycle until the pin picks up on the damage to the liner and the above happens much the same way. Really occasionally the liner catastrophically fails but the piston and rod assembly stay complete.

You can confirm this quite easily by looking at what is left of the bore on the failed cylinder, if there are two horizontal deep scores/gouges running up the length of the bore or one thick horizontal deep score/gouge (depends on the bore diameter vs the finish and size of the wrist pin) then the failure was caused by the pin walking.

I've got a bit of experience of this failure mode as when I worked for someone else in a development role we experimented with press/interference fit wrist pins for reducing assembly weight..... it wasn't that successful Sad

Happy to do you an engineers report if needs be and you can send me some pictures of the bore the failure occurred in.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   All times are GMT - 12 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 4 of 8

 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum