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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6762
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im a little surprised that i didnt see any mention of the IMS bearing being replaced , Perhaps Hartech could advise wouldn,t that normally be replaced as a matter of cource ?

From the description it does sound like thats the component that has failed .

4k miles and less than a year .. if i had rebuilt that engine and herd this news i would be a pretty worried puppy right about now .
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Ruri ledger
Monza


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 170



PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear this I went through somthing similar all be it bores in my case. As others have mentioned you are in the time period where the dealer should be looking after you .

If you paid any part of the bill with a credit card than you can approach the credit card company as there is responsibility on there part as well

Hope it gets resolved
 
  
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scarletboarder
Silverstone


Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 123
Location: Swansea


PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the consumer rights summary despite the vehicle being sold with a 3 month warranty I'm assuming I have some recourse referencing this part;

"During the expected lifespan of your product you're entitled to the following:UP TO 6 MONTHS - If it can’t be repaired or replaced, then you're entitled to a full refund in most cases."

I did not pay any part of the vehicle cost on a credit card. The repairer have already taken the engine out which they did not ask me about before actioning!!

Dealer owner has not rang me back yet despite leaving messages with other staff there.
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scarletboarder
Silverstone


Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 123
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The engine is massively damaged, see video and photos. The garage haven't said exactly what happened and seemed unsure or non-committal.
https://youtu.be/KUp_v-Obpcg
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scarletboarder
Silverstone


Joined: 04 Aug 2016
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Location: Swansea


PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote






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Phil 997
Le Mans
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2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blimey there's a lot of metal debris and damage. when have they said they will tell you whats happening Dont know
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scarletboarder
Silverstone


Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 123
Location: Swansea


PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote






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scarletboarder
Silverstone


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
Blimey there's a lot of metal debris and damage. when have they said they will tell you whats happening Dont know


I've asked them for a report on the exact cause. They said it needs a whole bottom end. I have questioned what was replaced in the rebuild last year and what has failed this time.
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7067
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks as if a rod gave up and made a bid for freedom, what an awful mess. Sorry to see that.
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6762
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something either broke or came undone .. i count only 5 pistons in the pictures as well .. i dont think ive ever seen that amount of damage in over 12 years to be honest Sad

Even 1 of the liners has "D" chunked .. dear god !

I atm cant see anything thats salvageable .. i am truly sorry mate .. i dont think it could be any worse .


EDIT ..

I just watched the video .. a rod let go .. what a mess .. ive never seen anything like it Sad
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Last edited by deMort on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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996ttalot
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Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 1483
Location: Horley Gatwick


PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for your troubles, but if you don't mind I'll give you a different direction to focus on.

Imo what you should be focused on is not what happened, but how you can ensure that when you get your car back, that it is unlikely to happen again. The engine from the pictures is toast. I don't build these m96 engines as we focus on turbos, gt3, and older engines and just don't have the time, so we send these purely for time basis to Grant and Baz at Hartech, apart from the fact that I know they are experts in these engines of course.

An engine is an engine and when you have a complete failure like this, the biggest problem in the rebuild (apart from sourcing replacing parts) is making absolutely sure that no debris is anywhere else in the engine after rebuild. A simple piece of swarf in an oil way that is missed can then lead to the same issue. Anyone who thinks that it is easy to remove everything is mistaken - it takes hours and hours to ensure so personally in your position I would want someone like Hartech rebuilding this, because they will have faced this issue before. Maybe the garage has this experience - I don't know.

It could be that your garage if you have a chat with them, might be prepared to subcontract the work for example to Hartech. I think they have blocks available on exchange maybe. Even if you have to make a contribution so that you know you have a good engine then I would not dismiss that idea.

Also, although minor, with a new block comes a new engine number. Whilst it is not material on your car in terms of value, it still has some impact.

I do feel sorry for the garage as well. Most places do their up most to ensure that rebuilds do not come back to them - it is not financially wise to have a different outlook.

I would try and work with the garage and see what can be done. You will achieve more that way - could be like I suggested that you end up with a better engine and it costs them less as well.

Good luck with everything. Thumb

Ken
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like the rod for cylinder 5 has given up, what a fookin mess that is, its machined the crank carrier almost into 1/4's.

It's a shame the video doesn't show the right hand case half as there could be a good reason the rod gave up like the liner dropping (think I read it had work on 4, 5 & 6) or turning.

Do you have any pics of the righthand case half Question
 
  
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scarletboarder
Silverstone


Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 123
Location: Swansea


PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harv wrote:
Looks like the rod for cylinder 5 has given up, what a fookin mess that is, its machined the crank carrier almost into 1/4's.

It's a shame the video doesn't show the right hand case half as there could be a good reason the rod gave up like the liner dropping (think I read it had work on 4, 5 & 6) or turning.

Do you have any pics of the righthand case half Question


Isn't the right hand case half underneath the left one in the video?
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scarletboarder
Silverstone


Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 123
Location: Swansea


PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All other photos I have posted below. The video and these images show everything that was on the bench. Is it all there?????
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scarletboarder
Silverstone


Joined: 04 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote









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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the right case half is there, it's obscured by the left case half in the video and photo's, it may not show much but would be interesting to see a photo of the cylinders taken from the inside.

Ask for the pic above and also see if they did all their own in-house matching to fit the liners or if the work was farmed out, if so to whom (don't need to disclose this, just retain it for your info).

Really hoping that you get to a better place with this and either the dealer or engine shop have some options to move forward with. Any 'decent' firm should have some form of professional indemnity insurance against poor workmanship etc but I've no idea what it would take to peruse this course of action and what costs could be recovered.
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8255
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harv wrote:
Looks like the rod for cylinder 5 has given up, what a fookin mess that is, its machined the crank carrier almost into 1/4's.

It's a shame the video doesn't show the right hand case half as there could be a good reason the rod gave up like the liner dropping (think I read it had work on 4, 5 & 6) or turning.

Do you have any pics of the righthand case half Question


Both crankcases are stacked and are equally messy although 4-6' bores are obscured by 1-3 on top of it.

EDIT to say Harv already spotted the above.

I could have told you exactly what had happened to that engine without removing the engine and there won't be much at all that will be salvageable from it apart from maybe vale gear and possibly heads if the pistons didn't cause too much damage or the vales didn't get bend, some look a little lifted from their seats though.

I would be worried using that crankshaft again as the whole centre of the crankshaft carrier and crankcases have been compromised and may have thrown the crankshaft off somewhat if it flexed at all.

I can see both conrod bolts so it doesn't look like a bolt failure which is a usual suspect but there only looks like half a conrod on the bench under the casing debris, unless the other end is hidden but I think it would be long enough to be seen.

I think a used engine is the way forward for this one, there are too many parts required and as particles are everywhere you would need to buy new AOS and the in sump AOS' as these could have debris lurking, there are a few items I wouldn't want to re-use. The individual parts to make this engine up again would be eye watering before any future proofing.

Good luck with whatever gets sorted.
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Last edited by infrasilver on Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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CFo
Monza


Joined: 02 Feb 2016
Posts: 225
Location: Totteridge, London


PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is for the seller to sort; it's less than 6 months from sale
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8255
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CFo wrote:
Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is for the seller to sort; it's less than 6 months from sale


I'm not saying anything different, I am making scarletboarder aware of the questions to ask when they reassemble if that road is taken, the crankshaft is my main worry if it's reused. There has been a lot of fatigue to that engine, chains may look OK but who knows what they have been through and many other items will have been stressed.

Look at the parts list of what is required to fix this engine, I personally would be happier with a fully inspected used engine this time and I would usually advise to steer clear of such a thing.
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kurlykris
Indianapolis


Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Posts: 2438
Location: Warwickshire


PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, that is probably the most catastrophic engine failure result that I have ever seen, as Infrasilver says, NOTHING is re-useable with any margin of safety nooo

Looks like the conrod in cylinder 2 or 5 ( don`t know enough about this engine to tell which side ) let go and carved the crankcase in half, destroyed everything and tore the IMS ( tube ) shaft Sad

I`d be persuing the seller if it was my engine, but then I have done this sort of thing before and won, albeit not actually recouping the cost of the legal fees, but hey, I won and that`s what matters to me Thumb

If the seller doesn`t cough up, I would go the used engine route and then part ex the car, at least that way you are not £12K out of pocket, maybe just £6K Sad
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