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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 444



PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TBF, a rebuilt engine, done by a reputable builder, will likely be just as durable as anything.

OP, I feel your pain - I had an extensive gearbox rebuild on mine just 12 months ago - and can only echo what a few others have said; if you want to keep it, you have the chance to build something that's better than anything you could buy.
 
  
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cheshire911
Estoril


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3828



PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only real choice is a full and comprehensive rebuild or sell it as-is for the buyer to sink his money into it. But if your dealer has started dismantling, the journey has begun on the road to a full rebuild because you'd have him put it back together to sell it as-is with broken engine.
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9275
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bad luck.

Get it rebuilt properly, don't scrimp or try and cut corners.

Hopefully 102 days was long enough for you to realise that you have one of the best drivers cars in the world.

Good luck.
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scarletboarder
Silverstone


Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 125
Location: Swansea


PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the comments. I bought the car from a dealer. The engine was rebuilt on 24/11/15, details below. It has done approximately 4000 miles since with about 2k during my ownership. I've run it on 2 500+ mile trips and had an oil service on it as soon as I took ownership back at the rebuild garage for them to check everything was ok.
At the time I was accelerating up past 60 miles an hour at about 4500 rpm. Oil seemed to be coming from the left side of the engine underneath. No strange noises or issues prior to this.



Thanks, Phil W
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maldren
Suzuka


Joined: 07 Oct 2016
Posts: 1100



PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like you may have some recourse to the dealer and/or rebuilder. Depends on what went wrong but it really shouldn't fail so soon after a rebuild.
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2003 996.2 C2 Coupe Arctic Silver
 
  
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Pip1968
Suzuka


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1171
Location: Blighty


PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The invoice does mention keeping the revolutions down for the first 2,000 miles although you were just over. I would say dealer may feel obliged to chip in ...goodwill?

Pip
 
  
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wibbaboo
Monza


Joined: 18 Nov 2014
Posts: 215
Location: Bristol

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's under a year since the rebuild...and 4K mileage.
Would have expected it to last longer than that Surprised ?
 
  
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear,

The repair bill from the last rebuild is an interesting read and your best course of action immediately will be for the place that rebuilt the engine to have a look at it.

The works they did only seem to be concerned with replacing liners on bank 2 but the whole engine was re-ringed? Would be asking what ring set was used as this engine seems to be using original Pistons and ring set in a variety of cylinder liner materials (perhaps that is ok?). No mention that the timing chains were replaced or any work to fit a new ims bearing while the engine was in bits so seems like a false economy not to have changed those at the same time.

There's no such thing an easy quick rebuild with these engines, too much time and effort involved to get it removed, stripped, assessed, fixed and re installed. It's a shame Porsche ran out of the replacement short block units at 4K as they were a good deal, albeit with the same potential failure issues.

Keep us updated

Last edited by Harv on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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nigel99
Barcelona


Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 1313
Location: Berkshire

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having owned the car for less than 4 months I would be banging on the dealers door discussing the consumer rights act.

"Between 30 days and 6 months
If a fault comes to light after 30 days but before 6 months have passed then you are entitled to a repair, replacement or refund. It is assumed in law that the fault was present at the time of purchase unless the seller can prove otherwise. During this period, unless you have agreed otherwise, the seller (dealer) has only one opportunity to repair (or replace) the faulty vehicle after which, if they fail to repair it, you are entitled to a refund."
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segart
Nürburgring


Joined: 28 Jan 2015
Posts: 413
Location: Jersey - Britains South Sea Isle


PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harv wrote:
No mention that the timing chains were replaced or any work to fit a new ims bearing while the engine was in bits so seems like a false economy not to have changed those at the same time.



Ditto on that. Seems a no brainer that with the motor in bits, a new standard sealless ims bearing should have been installed or ideally the modified Hartech spindle and bearing.

Unless the original rebuilder is prepared to discount heavily on a new rebuild, I would be inclined to take the engine to one of the better known rebuilders of the m96 engine such as Hartech.
fwiw
Rick
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 947
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will not be surprised that I would like to add a comment.

Firstly I take no pleasure in reading about problems this owner and others have had with the faults they encounter and the unsatisfactory rebuilds elsewhere and I feel a lot of sympathy for the owner, the damage to the marque I love and the affect it has on model values.

What this reveals however is that our posts that warn against the variety of different solutions using ferrous liners that are often short lived and can result in further rebuilds are at least based on experience and not scare mongerring.

Two rebuilds with ferrous liners have (it seems) still not managed to fix the looming problem of bank 1 bores, still not resulted in a reliable engine and involved two different versions/designs of iron liner businesses and further liner sub-contractors (that always makes it difficult to get satisfactory support when things go wrong).

It may very well be that the fault this second time was not related to the liners but it reinforces the need for at least considering the benefits of having a proper rebuild done by the leading experts even if it may cost a little more in the short term.

Our price for 3 liners in one bank is only £1400 +Vat but reduces to £2,500 + Vat for all 6 (effectively just a little more expensive than this second rebuild charged) and provides a best solution with the longest lasting bores that run with any piston coating and provide the best cooling and stable expansion and contraction characteristics that suit this engine type and with the crankcase converted to a closed deck design - later proven reliable by the Gt3 and turbo variants and the Gen 2 engines.

Furthermore because all our work is carried out "IN-HOUSE" - if ever there was a subsequent problem (even if it was or was not caused by us) at least all the negotiating would be with just one supplier - with no opportunity for us to blame others - and we would do our best (as always) to help the owner and keep everyone happy.

Fortunately our reliability record is superb and the fact that we have several dedicated people and facilities doing nothing else but engine repairs and rebuilds daily - enables us to take a more supportive view of any subsequent problems as we are set-up to handle them effectively and quickly.

We have gone to great lengths to explain why we think it is best to adopt the solution we uniquely offer in our new engine guide (we hope to finish and make available soon) but until then we have found many reasons why the replacement with ferrous liners is often less reliable long term than with Nikasil alloy liners and I am sure that if we had had the opportunity to rebuild this engine originally it would still be running perfectly Ok.

Baz
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7108
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nightmare! Second one on here this week too Sad

The waters are rather muddy though re the build- it will be difficult to prove it was anything to do or not with the rebuild that caused the failure. If it was an IMS or timing chain failure which the previous owner decided to not get done then the builder has no liability IMO.

Either way I hope it get sorted in some favourable way for you.
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Osh
Sepang


Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 2931
Location: Bristol


PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Scarlet - really feel for you m8; keep us all informed of your progress.


Osh
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EGTE
Imola


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 823



PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rebuild should be paid for by the dealer, no question at all.

Any faults in the first 6 months are assumed to have been present at the time of sale, unless proven otherwise (as Nigel said earlier).

Be thankful it didn't happen 81 days later......
 
  
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scarletboarder
Silverstone


Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 125
Location: Swansea


PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of interesting info in the comments, thanks.
The dealer who sold it to me on 05/08/16 was the one who had the rebuild done. The son then used the car for the time in between. The car is back with the garage that did the rebuild and I await their report. I haven't contacted the dealer yet. Phil.
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maldren
Suzuka


Joined: 07 Oct 2016
Posts: 1100



PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scarletboarder wrote:
The son then used the car for the time in between. Phil.


So it was clearly run in carefully!!!
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2003 996.2 C2 Coupe Arctic Silver
 
  
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Avon
Trainee


Joined: 12 Mar 2016
Posts: 79



PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man you must feel sick

I have decided not to drive my car for the rest of the week. Disturbing pattern of engine failures!
 
  
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saxon46
Monza


Joined: 16 Mar 2015
Posts: 178
Location: south wales boy bach


PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just curious who was the dealer that sold you the car...
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KJD
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 1243
Location: Monmouthshire


PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really sorry to read this, no doubt you bought the car having already had a rebuild so that you had some piece of mind.

Hope you get it fixed very soon.
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New997buyer
Fuji


Joined: 17 Oct 2010
Posts: 9150



PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrible situation nooo

On the plus side you'll get plenty of advice and support on here Friends

One thing you might want to familiarise yourself intimately is your rights. But also the best way to get the outcome you want. They are more robust than you may realise? (Apologies if you already know what they are!):

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/about-us/how-citizens-advice-works/citizens-advice-consumer-work/the-consumer-rights-act-2015/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34410782

One thing I'd be cautious about from what you've said is that you haven't informed the dealer. Please be careful you don't engage the repairer / contract with them at this stage. Tempting as it may be, it isn't you and them vs the dealer. The contract you had is with the dealer. You really ought to give them the opportunity to rectify the fault / situation.

In fact (if I have understood the thread correctly?) by returning it to the original repairer you are entering potentially difficult territory as it could be argued they have a vested interest in where any fault lies, since they had a pre-existing contract with the dealer. This could see things get messy. It may not but I'd just be careful IMHO.

At the end of the day though you have your rights, no matter how 'firm' retailers get. In these things its always best to keep things simple and clear. You can also simply launch a small claims action against the trader these days:
https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview

I've done it myself and it is very easy. And like I said at the start, plenty of help on here.

But I'd recommend you think about how you broach it with the retailer / dealer. In short its their mess so I'd make sure they clean it up.

Good luck mate - feel for you big time thumbsup

(Please note - the above is my opinion and nothing else. It should not be construed as legal advice! Other approaches and views are of course available Thumb )
 
  
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